Mma

[Slime Slayer]

well the drama is definetly starting to make its prescense, espicially with the shows like the ultimate fighter, and trash talkin and accusations of cheating and stuff. id say battle royals are a little far fetched though[br]Posted on: February 20, 2009, 12:20:35 PM_________________________________________________i need to get some of these: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZ6C9...agepotato.com/

[Winnebagel]

Those look pretty sweet. The wrestling moves they can do are impressive.

[Slime Slayer]

just a heads up to anyone who is interested, there is fight night 18 free on spike tommorrow night, followed by the season premier of the ultimate fighter;D

[Slime Slayer]

anyone catch ufc 98? lyoto machida is frigging awsome!!

[Dojah]

Tito=Clown
Liddell=Clown
Couture=OK.but not the best
GSP=Really Good
BJ Penn=Really Good
Silva=Really Good(but not best pound for pound fighter)
Brock=Not as good as people think
FEDOR EMELIANENKO=best fighter in the WORLD hands down without a doubt pound for pound. Fedor is an unbelievable fighter. If you don't know who he is well you have to youtube him and check it out. Puts UFC Champs to shame. PrideFC was a better orginization until it fell and UFC bought them out along with thier fighters. I have been into UFC and MMA in general since it started right here in my home town of Denver.
I also train at the Shao-Lin under Master David & Sharon Soard. I Love MMA!

[Slime Slayer]

gsp= best pfp
fedor= unstopable fighter, i think hes been lucky a few times though
anderson silva= great fighter but cant seem to finish guys as of late
matt hughes= cocky goof, but seems to be turning things around with his attitude alittle
bj penn= past his prime, could have been a much better fighter if he had more passion for the sport, and hes such a whiny bastard, the whole grease thing just made him look dumb
couture= legend
lesner= improving his game by leaps and bounds, and is going to have the title for a long time, mir is toast this time
i love mma too!

[Billy Hoyle]

Originally Posted by Winnebagel

In the past I have always been a mega boxing fan, but with the sad state of the sweet science these days, I have been starting to pay more attention to MMA. I catch it when I can (mostly in passing) but I like what I see. Call me a barbarian, but I like it when the ladies beat on each other in MMA too.

Describe what you mean by the 'sad state of the sweet science'.

If you're referring to trinket belts and too many weight classes, then yes, I agree with you that boxing has seen better days in regards to those subjects.

If you're referring to the lack of American heavyweight talent, then yes, I also agree . As I believe Bert Sugar stated, they are all playing linebacker in the NFL.

But if you actually are paying attention to boxing, there are a multitude of great fighters and compelling storylines happening as I type these words. From 130 to 168 there are a ton of great, young fighters. Do you realize how big of an event there is going to be if Mayweather is able to get past Marquez this summer? It doesn't even matter if he fights Pacquiao. Mayweather is arguably the best self-promotor since Muhammad Ali.

I might be on the short side of this discussion here, but it aggravates me when I hear people bashing boxing and saying how MMA is the next great thing in terms of the fistic arts. From what I've observed of MMA, most of these guys are muscle-bound and poorly conditioned. It's nice to see them stand up and swing, but I haven't seen one person in MMA who has the hand and/or defensive skills to last more than a couple of rounds with an elite boxer. And I've never understood the appeal of watching two grown men roll around a ring and grope each other, which it seems is what goes on 75% of the time in an MMA fight.

Thoughts? Opinions? I love discussing this.

[Dudebro]

I like Boxing but it's too limited. It's only punching and it's only allowed in the head and body. I prefer MMA because it's like a real fight(besides the few rules like no kicking a downed fighter and other obvious ones).
MMA also has grappling, which might look like two guys groping each other, but it's actually it's own sweet science. If any of those pro boxers got put in a leg lock they'd be giving up as quick as Brock Lesnar did in his first fight.

Different strokes for different folks as they say.

[Dojah]

Originally Posted by Billy Hoyle

I might be on the short side of this discussion here, but it aggravates me when I hear people bashing boxing and saying how MMA is the next great thing in terms of the fistic arts. From what I've observed of MMA, most of these guys are muscle-bound and poorly conditioned. It's nice to see them stand up and swing, but I haven't seen one person in MMA who has the hand and/or defensive skills to last more than a couple of rounds with an elite boxer. And I've never understood the appeal of watching two grown men roll around a ring and grope each other, which it seems is what goes on 75% of the time in an MMA fight.

Honestly I don't think you know much about MMA. You saying most of these guys are muscle-bound and poorly conditioned is the craziest statement Ive heard on this post yet. What muscle-bound people are you refering to? Brock? Kongo? If you really watched you would see they are not as muscley as you say. GSP, Silva, Griffen, Machida, Rua, Rampage, Liddell, Couture, Penn, Florian etc... are far from that. These fighters compete at standards level with professional athletes (i.e. baseball, basketball, football, etc...) If not more. And also the statement of an MMA fighter lasting a couple rounds with an elite boxer is not well grounded seeing that every single proffesional boxer which includes K-1 has got slaughtered when it comes to fighting an average MMA fighter. We can take one look at the originator of MMA and see why its called the new thing. Bruce Lee is known and still confirmed the best fighter that ever lived. Pride Fighting was an orginization that had many elite boxers enter and come out as losers....As a matter of fact the only elite boxer that ever made it far was Cro-Cop...which he eventually got creamed.
I mean no offence when saying this, this is just my opinion. But I have grown up in the sport and think you are way off when it comes to certain facts brought up.

[Slime Slayer]

yeah thats the thing, its mma as in mixed martial arts, a boxer isnt going to stand a chance in an mma fight because his fighting style is one dimentional. to be a good mma fighter you need to be good in all aspects of the game, ju-jitsu, wrestling, striking, ground and pound and whatever else. back in the early ufcs, there was a lot of fat guys who did all their training in bar room brawls, but the sport has evolved so far from that, now the guys are crazy conditioned.
not to take anything away from boxing, but i like the idea that a fighter can pick a guy up and slam him on his head.
cro-cop has another fight scheduled with the ufc if you havent heard, lets hope he can get back in the swing of things.

[Billy Hoyle]

Originally Posted by Dojah

You saying most of these guys are muscle-bound and poorly conditioned is the craziest statement Ive heard on this post yet.

The proof's in the pudding. Most heavy handed, one punch K.O. boxers have had muscular, yet sleek and athletic bodies. If you need to see an example, look up Thomas Hearns, Roberto Duran, Kelly Pavlik, Muhammad Ali, Marvin Hagler, Joe Louis, Jack Dempsey etc. Most of the men mentioned in your post have bulky frames that look as if they have been created by lifting a lot of weights. Lifting weights may make you look intimidating and tough, but unless you can throw a punch with the proper leverage and balance all of that muscle mass means nothing.

These guys could also go for 12 to 15 rounds. That's 36 to 45 minutes. What is the average MMA fight? Four 5 minute rounds? Less time equals less conditioning. Nothing against the MMA guys for that because their sport doesn't require the same amount of conditioning, but facts are facts. Please spare the argument that they need to worry about wrestling and going to the ground. One, boxers have to deal with clinches and in-fighting where there's a lot of body contact and two, often times in MMA guys can/will take short breaks when they go to the ground.

Originally Posted by Dojah

These fighters compete at standards level with professional athletes (i.e. baseball, basketball, football, etc...) If not more.

That doesn't make sense to me.

Originally Posted by Dojah

And also the statement of an MMA fighter lasting a couple rounds with an elite boxer is not well grounded seeing that every single proffesional boxer which includes K-1 has got slaughtered when it comes to fighting an average MMA fighter. Pride Fighting was an orginization that had many elite boxers enter and come out as losers....As a matter of fact the only elite boxer that ever made it far was Cro-Cop...which he eventually got creamed.

Mirko Cro-Cop? The same Mirko Cro-Cop that as a boxer had a 40-5 amateur record and a 12-5 professional record.

***Correction*** Boxrec.com, the online reference that contains the results of approximately 1.4 million professional boxing matches has no entry for Mirko Filipovic. Granted, boxrec.com does not keep track of amateur bouts, but the 12-5 boxing record appears to be bogus. It might be his professional kickboxing record.

Considering all of these fights took place in Croatia, I hardly consider him an elite boxer. Tell me why you think these 'boxers' cross over to MMA. Has an MMA pay per view card ever generated 2.5 million buys?

Originally Posted by Dojah

Bruce Lee is known and still confirmed the best fighter that ever lived. I mean no offence when saying this, this is just my opinion.

Known and confirmed? By who? Did he ever really fight anyone?

[Slime Slayer]

the very best in any sport are extremely conditioned, ufc has generated over a million buys, but keep in mind that there is 1 about one ufc a month.
also just want to point out that, freddie roach (im guessing we all know who that is)
has trained many mma fighters including, Andrei Arlovski, Anderson Silva, B.J. Penn, Tito Ortiz and Sokoudjou
as far as the fact boxer go for 12 rounds is different, the boxers have short bursts of energy, where in mma you may need to hold on to a guillotine choke for 30 seconds, that exhausts your energy alot quicker.

[Dudebro]

Bruce Lee is known and still confirmed the best fighter that ever lived.

Link?

[Billy Hoyle]

I'm only asking this because I don't know and don't feel like looking it up, but how many times has UFC or any other MMA event generated over a million PPV buys? And what was the exact number of buys?

I didn't know Freddie Roach trained MMA guys. Was he in their corner during the fight, or did he come to their camp and work with them on hand skills?

I agree that the muscle movements required for boxing and MMA are different, but you're going to have to do better to convince me that boxers aren't better conditioned than MMA fighters. Do this for me...Try making fists and holding them beside your chin for 30 minutes and then let me know if you think boxers are only trained for short bursts of energy.

[Slime Slayer]

also title matches are 5, 5 minute rounds so a total of 25 minutes which isnt to far off 12, 3 minute rounds totaling 36, with alot more breaks.
freddie roach does corner guys aswell, although i dont know specifically who and when.
i would say that as far as conditioning goes, its not a situation where you can say one sport has better than the other, that is all up to the individual. there are always gonna be guys in each sport that gas out. keep in mind that mma fighters, just like boxers have passion for what they do, and they wake up and do there 5k run before breakfast, just like boxers. they are all humans pushing themselves to their very limit, its not like the boxers are a different breed or anything.

[CatalystiCam]

my bro watches WEC occasionally, watching featherweights is the most exciting.

[Dojah]

Originally Posted by Billy Hoyle

The proof's in the pudding. Most heavy handed, one punch K.O. boxers have had muscular, yet sleek and athletic bodies. If you need to see an example, look up Thomas Hearns, Roberto Duran, Kelly Pavlik, Muhammad Ali, Marvin Hagler, Joe Louis, Jack Dempsey etc. Most of the men mentioned in your post have bulky frames that look as if they have been created by lifting a lot of weights.

OK this almost laughable but here it goes. Like I said obvioulsy you know nothing about MMA. The people I listed do not have bulky frames, and do not look even close to someone created by lifting weights...and wouldnt that also say the exact oposite of what you said about MMA fighters being un-conditioned? There is no proof in your pudding what so ever...lol. The fighters you bring up are bigger than my list by far. Congo and Lesnar are only exception.

Originally Posted by Billy Hoyle

These guys could also go for 12 to 15 rounds. That's 36 to 45 minutes. What is the average MMA fight? Four 5 minute rounds? Less time equals less conditioning. Nothing against the MMA guys for that because their sport doesn't require the same amount of conditioning, but facts are facts. Please spare the argument that they need to worry about wrestling and going to the ground. One, boxers have to deal with clinches and in-fighting where there's a lot of body contact and two, often times in MMA guys can/will take short breaks when they go to the ground.

Ok another laughable point you make. First boxing only goes 12 rounds now. Been like that for 2 years-ish. Such orginization like RioHeroes go with no breaks til fight is done. Also lets use math like you try to use...MMA fight can go to 25 minutes with only 4 breaks 4 INUTES. Boxing can go 36 minutes with 11 breaks and 11 minutes of break time. almost 3 times the break /less than 1/3 more fight time. You saying thier sport does not require the same amount of conditioning is simply your ignorance on this sport. You can google the training regiments of fighters and you can see boxers do not compare. It's no big deal, you just do not know about the sport or the fighters and your FACTS are NOT facts...they are assumptions.
Talking about boxers who clinch and fighting with lots of body contact is hilarious when comparing to technical arts of ground fighting. Not a big deal just another point about you not knowing about the sport. When boxers clinch its just for that reason mostly..for resting. It's not a technical move.

Originally Posted by Billy Hoyle

That doesn't make sense to me.

I dont understand how that can not make sense. Maybe the word level threw you off, it means equal in this discussion

Originally Posted by Billy Hoyle

Mirko Cro-Cop? The same Mirko Cro-Cop that as a boxer had a 40-5 amateur record and a 12-5 professional record.

You must also not know about K-1 which is what I am speaking of. He was a K-1 champion. You might not feel like this is an elite boxer but your belief/feeling means nothing.

Originally Posted by Billy Hoyle

Tell me why you think these 'boxers' cross over to MMA. Has an MMA pay per view card ever generated 2.5 million buys?

Well people like De la Hoya, Mayweather, Hasim Rahman who talked about going over to MMA talks about this being realer than boxing. Your assumption of generated buys is yet another point you make about knowing nothing about MMA
Going off stats. Ufc has generated more money in its first 16 years than boxing did. Remember Ufc is still new, Boxing as a sport is over 100 years old. Although this generated buys part of the convo means nothing and holds no ground.

Originally Posted by Billy Hoyle

Known and confirmed? By who? Did he ever really fight anyone?

Well going off testimony form the best fighters of his generation(top ranked champions of the world) to todays best fighters. He faught many times...but lets remember there was no style on style compititions back then that even compae to what we have today. He was known for his many fights in China, along with his greatest fight achievement winning overGrandMaster Wong Jack Man. Highest ranked Master in America at that time..and I believe still is. This was also before he created JKD...which we now call MMA.

Lets look at reality for a minute and not fantasy world. Boxing is so below MMA it's funny to even argue over it. You try to bring up these so called facts that are so far off based its funny. Why do you think our special forces learn such techniques as JKD/MMA/ Paul Vunak who learned from Bruce Lee's top student Don Inosanto taught our most elite special forces these techniques. Also SCIENCE has confirmed that a boxers punch is about 4 times as weak as a simple kick...something boxers know nothing about. They also confirmed a simple knee is also stronger than a boxers punch. They usedSteve Petramale who is well known and a hgh up trainer in the boxing world. I know you know who he is.
This can be seen on youtube if you would like.
Also about boxers who come get beat in MMA..we can see champion Ray Mercer get his butt handed to him by a very unskilled street fighter named KIMBO. Kimbo sucks badly and he taught Mercer a lesson. We also have Yosuke Nishijima the WBO NABO cruiserweight title, the OPBF cruiserweight title and the World Boxing Federation cruiserweight champ who tried to fight MMA and has an impressing 0-5 record.
The point is in the real world MMA dominates boxing. This is not a fantasy world where people only use thier hands. There are hands, elbows, knees, shins, feet, submissions, throws of all kinds, and really the list goes on and on. A fight includes them all...now a slap fight hehe boxing would be what you want to learn.
I mean no harm in this post billy. I'll let you slap me with one of those huge boxing gloves.

[Billy Hoyle]

@Dojah: I've read your post, but want to take the proper time to respond thoughtfully to what you've written, so I'm going to get back to you in a day or two when I have the time.

[Slime Slayer]

And hoyles down with a standing eight count!

[Billy Hoyle]

Originally Posted by Dojah

Ok another laughable point you make. First boxing only goes 12 rounds now. Been like that for 2 years-ish.

Do you mean 20 years-ish? And the main reason championship fights went from 15 to 12 rounds was the tragic death of Duk Koo Kim several days after he fought Ray Mancini in 1982. If MMA is so 'real', why has there been no fatalities?

Originally Posted by Dojah

MMA fight can go to 25 minutes with only 4 breaks 4 INUTES.

What are 'INUTES'? Is that some type of animal?

Originally Posted by Dojah

Boxing can go 36 minutes with 11 breaks and 11 minutes of break time. almost 3 times the break /less than 1/3 more fight time.

Here's a fact: Championship boxing matches are longer than MMA bouts.

Originally Posted by Dojah

When boxers clinch its just for that reason mostly..for resting. It's not a technical move.

While boxers who have been 'buzzed' might try to clinch to regain their senses, it is employed as part of fight strategies by many crafty boxers. Although you might not agree, clinching does take a significant amount of energy and can be used to disrupt another fighter's rythmn.

Originally Posted by Dojah

You must also not know about K-1 which is what I am speaking of. He was a K-1 champion. You might not feel like this is an elite boxer but your belief/feeling means nothing.

You live in a box. K-1 is K-1. Boxing is boxing.

Originally Posted by Dojah

Well going off testimony form the best fighters of his generation(top ranked champions of the world) to todays best fighters. He faught many times...but lets remember there was no style on style compititions back then that even compae to what we have today. He was known for his many fights in China, along with his greatest fight achievement winning overGrandMaster Wong Jack Man. Highest ranked Master in America at that time..and I believe still is. This was also before he created JKD...which we now call MMA.

Punching and kicking air is not fighting. Name one person he put to sleep. Please.

Originally Posted by Dojah

Also SCIENCE has confirmed that a boxers punch is about 4 times as weak as a simple kick...something boxers know nothing about. They also confirmed a simple knee is also stronger than a boxers punch.

Duh. When one kicks, he or she is employing a much larger group of muscles and bones which can generate much more force. It's been awhile since I studed physics, but I do believe Mass x Acceleration = Force. Besides, kicking is like soccer. It's only for sissies.

Originally Posted by Dojah

They used Steve Petramale who is well known and a hgh up trainer in the boxing world. I know you know who he is.

Steve Petramale is a zilch who fought 4 times from 1984 to 1989. I know of not one fighter who he has trained.

Originally Posted by Dojah

we can see champion Ray Mercer get his butt handed to him by a very unskilled street fighter named KIMBO. Kimbo sucks badly and he taught Mercer a lesson.

Ray Mercer would have trouble handing a dozen Krispy Kreme donuts at his age and in his current condition. He hasn't been a relevant fighter for nearly fifteen years.

Originally Posted by Dojah

We also have Yosuke Nishijima the WBO NABO cruiserweight title, the OPBF cruiserweight title and the World Boxing Federation cruiserweight champ who tried to fight MMA and has an impressing 0-5 record.

Yosuke Nishijima is also a nobody who lost his last fight over 5 years ago to a 12-6 journeyman via a 2nd round TKO. He was an unimpressive boxer too, pal.

Originally Posted by Dojah

I mean no harm in this post billy. I'll let you slap me with one of those huge boxing gloves.

You'd probably like it too much. I've seen the pictures of you and your buddies in your costumes beating the crap out of air.

[Slime Slayer]

Hoyle comes back with an over hand right witch stuns dojah!

[Dojah]

Originally Posted by Billy Hoyle

Do you mean 20 years-ish? And the main reason championship fights went from 15 to 12 rounds was the tragic death of Duk Koo Kim several days after he fought Ray Mancini in 1982. If MMA is so 'real', why has there been no fatalities?

I did some typo's, I didnt take a day to think it out like you. Which obvioulsy you didnt think much out. LOL. So you start off saying that they last 15 rounds then back track saying that was 20 years ago after i stated it. LOL For you to really ask about the fatalities in MMA speaks loud on your knowledge of the human body, boxing, and MMA. There are many doctors who talk about this specifically you can google. I'll just leave it at simple ones without having to look anything up...Obviously you never heard of Second Impact Syndrome, and repeated head blows. When was the last time you seen a boxer get his arm broke, wrist broke, leg broke, anke broke, clavicles broken, teeth knocked out, etc...? When was the last brutal scar you seen from boxing? It's the fact that Since MMA is so much more brutal than boxing they have higher safety standards which you can also see for yourself. Your ignorance is no excuse.

Originally Posted by Billy Hoyle

What are 'INUTES'? Is that some type of animal?

Another typo, which I am sure most people were able to understand given the rest of the sentance and what I was talking about...MINUTES.

Originally Posted by Billy Hoyle

Here's a fact: Championship boxing matches are longer than MMA bouts.

The fact is I already owned your theory on that with simple math. Boxers get almost 3 times as many breaks as MMA fighters going at best less than 1/3 the length. It's simple math. FACT I also told you about RioHeroes which goes on with no time limit, no rounds, no breaks, and has been known to go as long as 2 hours. Again your ignorance is no excuse.
NICE FACT but again you are delusional and seem to act like you know what you are talking about even though I am giving you specific examples that can easily be googled to show true. Another so-called fact shot down with ease.

Originally Posted by Billy Hoyle

While boxers who have been 'buzzed' might try to clinch to regain their senses, it is employed as part of fight strategies by many crafty boxers. Although you might not agree, clinching does take a significant amount of energy and can be used to disrupt another fighter's rythmn.

Another thing you like to back track on. First you say that MMA fighters take breaks when clinching/going to the ground, but when boxers do it it is strategic(GARBAGE) and can take a significant amount of energy and can be used to disrupt another fighter's rythmn. It's actually amuzing seeing you do this.

Originally Posted by Billy Hoyle

Punching and kicking air is not fighting. Name one person he put to sleep. Please.

Who said anything about punching and kicking air? I named someone and obviously you either can not read or do not know how to use google. Simply because you do not look it up, and yet try to act as if you did. Which we can all see you didnt. Also I would much rather take the word of the best fighters of his generation than what your delusions are. Yet again your ignorance is no excuse.

Originally Posted by Billy Hoyle

Duh. When one kicks, he or she is employing a much larger group of muscles and bones which can generate much more force. It's been awhile since I studed physics, but I do believe Mass x Acceleration = Force. Besides, kicking is like soccer. It's only for sissies.

Duhh, this is simple. You might say kicking is for sissies, but obvioulsy you have never been in a real fight, or at least in a fight with someone who has been in a fight. You can youtube bas ruttens kick using scientific machines and crash test experts with thier machines to show you your ignorance. Fight Science for all to look up. 2.1 VC which is more powerfull than any boxers punch in history by far! The equivilent to a 35 mph crash straight to the chest with enough compression to break numerous ribs including either stopping the heart os bruising it. Which can not be matched by any boxer, Tyson, Ali, NO ONE.

Originally Posted by Billy Hoyle

Steve Petramale is a zilch who fought 4 times from 1984 to 1989. I know of not one fighter who he has trained.

A zilch who was undefeated, yes he only fought a couple times, but means nothing. Just because you do not know who he has trained means nothing, and actually shows more ignorance. It's quite funny. LOL funny.

Originally Posted by Billy Hoyle

Ray Mercer would have trouble handing a dozen Krispy Kreme donuts at his age and in his current condition. He hasn't been a relevant fighter for nearly fifteen years.

I unlike you give actual examples. You give delusions and beliefs.

Originally Posted by Billy Hoyle

Yosuke Nishijima is also a nobody who lost his last fight over 5 years ago to a 12-6 journeyman via a 2nd round TKO. He was an unimpressive boxer too, pal.

Hmm a nobody huh. Yes like I told you he went over to MMA. WOW this is hilarious. I thought you were supposed to think about this for a couplle days. OK PAL just another example of where your ignorance is no excuse. A WBO champ is no one in your book tells alot aout your knowledge and understanding.

Originally Posted by Billy Hoyle

You'd probably like it too much. I've seen the pictures of you and your buddies in your costumes beating the crap out of air.

HAHAHA first you have never seen me or any of my friends. Everything you have stated is completly ignorant when it comes to this subject. Period. This is just another one. I also see you failed to respond on some of the more critical parts of how boxing is below MMA. I know you dont want to look bad so you dont bring it up but I will do it again. Special forces get taught MMA, government agencies get taught MMA. Some of the best boxers coming to MMA which you also failed to reply on, which I understand why you didnt, you didnt want to look foolish. You like to bring up assumptions and claim them to be fact. You make silly allegations and claim them to be fact. I am glad that all people can see this and read it. You make yourself look funny with all the back trakcing and elluding of certain facts. What can you do tho. All I can do is laugh as most people that read this will. Ignorance is no excuse! PERIOD!
And down again with a standing eight count. If you reply back you really should think about it this time. Bring actual facts, not allegations, assumptions, beliefs, or feelings that you try to put forth as facts. LOL

[Slime Slayer]

dojah catches him in a guillotine!!! it looks pretty deep!!

[Billy Hoyle]

Does anybody else get the feeling that I'm having a debate with 'Jeff' from Grandma's Boy?

@Dojah: For what it's worth, let's take a look at some pictures...

Two elite MMA Welterweights:

( Click to show/hide )

Top 10 All-Time Welterweight Boxer:

( Click to show/hide )

Elite MMA Heavyweight:

( Click to show/hide )

Top 10 All-Time Heavyweight Boxers:

( Click to show/hide )

( Click to show/hide )

Surely we can all notice the differences between the muscle mass of these men.

I tried to find images of fighters that would be a good representation of what I'm trying to explain. Granted, there are anomalies to my point. There have been several exceptionally talented boxers that have had the chiseled frames of body builders, but who were also blessed with amazing hand speed, balance and overall athleticism. There are and have been boxers with the build of the typical MMA fighter, but I have yet to see a MMA fighter who has the build of Hearns, Louis or Ali. Can you provide an example?

Also, you seem to be pretty proud of your point that militaries, governments and protection agencies teach MMA. Is that what's considered 'hand to hand combat'? That's been around for quite some time, right? I also know that every Midshipmen who attends the U.S. Naval Academy is required to take a course in boxing. Why didn't you mention that?

[Dojah]

Originally Posted by Billy Hoyle

Does anybody else get the feeling that I'm having a debate with 'Jeff' from Grandma's Boy?

Of course not because the evidence is there for all to see. This is not a fantasy world. You are making yourself look very foolish. Its sad.

Originally Posted by Billy Hoyle

@Dojah: For what it's worth, let's take a look at some pictures...

Surely we can all notice the differences between the muscle mass of these men.

Well yet another ignorant statement by someone who knows nothing on the sports. First you try to bring examples which obviously are NOT CORRECT! A boxing welterweight is about 140-147 pounds. In MMA a welterweight is 170. BOTH gsp and hughes you tried to show are 170. Yet again ignorance, and comedy at once. Of course there will be a difference between 2 people who weights that are 23-30 pounds in difference. I see you also tried taking weaker looking boxers instead of using someone like Tyson, or Holyfield. AMUZING!
Also this goes back to you saying MMA fighters were unconditioned which is funny. You actually said this then you try to show me how huge they are...hahaha how can someones mind work like that?

Originally Posted by Billy Hoyle

but I have yet to see a MMA fighter who has the build of Hearns, Louis or Ali. Can you provide an example?

YEP the best fighter in the world right now Fedor Emelianenko, even his brother Alexander. BJ penn is far from muscle bound. Just another point of your ignorance. Plain and simple. Proof is in the pudding. Hehe!

Originally Posted by Billy Hoyle

Also, you seem to be pretty proud of your point that militaries, governments and protection agencies teach MMA. Is that what's considered 'hand to hand combat'? That's been around for quite some time, right? I also know that every Midshipmen who attends the U.S. Naval Academy is required to take a course in boxing. Why didn't you mention that?

Well I am talking about something you eluded. And yes I am proud of it, as you should be to. No it has not been around for some time, its still new and you need to check it up instead of acting like you know something. Are you seriously trying to complare midshipmen to navy seals, fbi, cia, marines, etc...You have to be joking right? If you are not joking well I suggest you get some help. LOL Hmm the Navy requires them to box....nice they are on ships. Real soldiers who fight are required to learn MMA. Sorry buddy but stop making yourself look foolish.

Also I see you eluded almost everything else. Funny, and shows your ignorance.
BILLY down and out. knocked out with a stunning left kick to the face breaking the jaw.