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Old 12-01-2014, 12:58 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Tmnt 2

I noticed for TMNT 2 on NES, the top Wormreads score uses a continue on the snow stage.

Also, during the next score by Kmr214, there is a section where they kill the same respawning enemy for a little while. There are some games that have these sections and no timers and I wonder, where is the farming line drawn? When is the moment it stops being natural progression through the game and becomes farming?
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Old 12-01-2014, 01:35 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Re: Tmnt 2

I'll look into these for you. Thanks for bringing it to our attention.
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Old 12-01-2014, 01:42 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Re: Tmnt 2

Sure and thanks for checking on it. I don't necessarily think Kmr214 is breaking the rules. I just wanted to point that out as a kind of gray area in the rules.
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Old 12-02-2014, 05:10 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Re: Tmnt 2

As far as farming goes, I believe you can do it so long as the game has a timer in place where you can't do it forever -- I.E. Castlevania 1, 3 & IV (and subsequent hacks).
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Old 12-02-2014, 12:30 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Re: Tmnt 2

Yes, but if you take a look at a game like TMNT 2, there are areas that you must pass through to move on where you also have the oppurtunity to take out an endless number of enemies. If you continue to kill them for a long period of time, obviously that constitues farming/grinding or whatever. But when does it actually cross that line? Since you have to kill some anyway and might very well happen to get stuck on that screen for more than the minimum number of enemies, you might in the normal course of play kill a few extra say. So when exactly does it cross over from a reasonable number to farming?

Let's say in Super Mario Bros. there was no timer and you killed the jumping fish as you advanced on one of the bridges. They keep coming no matter how many you kill. As you kill them to advance, how many becomes too many?

Seems like there would need to be some sort of precise limit but that would almost need to be set per game.
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Old 12-03-2014, 01:06 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Re: Tmnt 2

Simple as this, You cannot farm UNLESS there is a Time Limit available in the game you are playing. You cannot use more than 1 man gained in that area you have farmed in.
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Old 12-03-2014, 02:08 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Re: Tmnt 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uter View Post
I wonder, where is the farming line drawn? When is the moment it stops being natural progression through the game and becomes farming?
This is the age-old question, but you've partly answered it yourself. It's all about 'natural progression'. If you're not advancing, you're farming.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Uter
a game like TMNT 2, there are areas that you must pass through to move on
Pass through, then. If you're not passing through, but instead take the chance to ramp up your points by mechanically and tediously killing the same respawning guys again and again... you're a farmer.

Quote:
you might in the normal course of play kill a few extra
No problem. You're advancing.

Quote:
Let's say in Super Mario Bros. there was no timer and you killed the jumping fish as you advanced on one of the bridges. They keep coming no matter how many you kill. As you kill them to advance, how many becomes too many?
In your hypothetical SMB example, if you're killing them to advance, no problem. If you stop on the bridge, aware that there's no timer, and kill fish after fish after fish without advancing, then that's farming country.

For me, it comes down to this: if it feels like you're cheating, you probably are. "Would I want someone to watch me doing this?" is a question worth bearing in mind. If you're able to gain points indefinitely by repeating the same mind-numbing, skill-less actions, you're grinding all the joy out of the game.
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Old 12-03-2014, 04:49 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Re: Tmnt 2

QAOP has nailed it:
if it feels like you're cheating, you probably are

It comes down to the mod's discretion. If he/she thinks you are standing around killing enemies, without attempting to progress further in the game, they have the right to invalidate your submission.

I am 100% against making specific and arbitrary rules for each game in which this scenario occurs. Time/enemy limits, frame limits or anything as such IMO shouldn't ever be introduced. Life limits ARE fine provided they are consistent (ie 5 life limit)

So basically don't farm. Play the game as it was meant to be played, or you risk having your submission rejected.

If a high score comes down to who can farm the most without the score being questioned, the game is flawed. And a possible outcome of that is for us to disable high scores (only accept clears). We don't want to have to start counting enemies. Thats something I'm definitely not prepared to do. If you guys were mods, would you feel the same way?

FYI - the top TMNT 2 (NES) score has been removed.

Last edited by Barra; 12-03-2014 at 04:52 AM..
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Old 12-03-2014, 11:54 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Re: Tmnt 2

I don't at all advocate for making a per game rule. That would be nearly impossible and time consuming to make sense.

Quote:
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If a high score comes down to who can farm the most without the score being questioned, the game is flawed. And a possible outcome of that is for us to disable high scores (only accept clears). We don't want to have to start counting enemies. Thats something I'm definitely not prepared to do. If you guys were mods, would you feel the same way?
This is exactly what I was trying to get at. Unfortunately many games fall under this category. If you notice in TMNT 2, in Kmr214's score run, they killed a bunch of respawning enemies for maybe a couple minutes. But then I could go in and kill just a few more and so on.

It seems like there could be a solution other than disabling high scores though. I'm not sure what it would be though outside of limiting enemies in farmable areas. On a game like TMNT 2 it would kind of stink to have to get rid of high scores because of a spot or 2 in which it's possible to farm though.

I could be wrong but it appears that Twin Galaxies let a game go on indefinitely if possible. Do they really not have a rule to account for this sort of thing?

Last edited by Uter; 12-03-2014 at 12:00 PM..
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Old 12-03-2014, 04:58 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Re: Tmnt 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uter
I could be wrong but it appears that Twin Galaxies let a game go on indefinitely if possible. Do they really not have a rule to account for this sort of thing?
From TG's website on TMNT2 NES:

Quote:
Originally Posted by TwinGalaxies
Special Rules: While some leeching is permitted in regards to opportunities against certain bosses [50 Points maximum], too much will result in your score being disqualified.
These "certain bosses" and the concept of "too much" are clearly issues for their mods too (and with their new submission process it's anyone's guess how that will pan out.)

I've seen TG rules for other games which are a great deal more complex and involved, down to specific instances on specific levels where specific actions are outlawed...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barra
I am 100% against making specific and arbitrary rules for each game in which this scenario occurs.
I 100% agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uter
Unfortunately many games fall under this category
Unfortunately you're right - as least as far as console games go.

In the Coin Op world, where tokens coming was (and is) the object for the operators and producers, after some early farming exploits (like Asteroids saucer hunting) this kind of thing was more or less eliminated.

I guess if you've shelled out for your cartridge and no more money's coming in, Nintendo (or whoever) couldn't care less how you play the thing.
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Old 12-03-2014, 07:45 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Re: Tmnt 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uter View Post
This is exactly what I was trying to get at. Unfortunately many games fall under this category. If you notice in TMNT 2, in Kmr214's score run, they killed a bunch of respawning enemies for maybe a couple minutes. But then I could go in and kill just a few more and so on.
They leeched for around 2 minutes, correct. Their score only went up by ~30.
Quote:
It seems like there could be a solution other than disabling high scores though. I'm not sure what it would be though outside of limiting enemies in farmable areas. On a game like TMNT 2 it would kind of stink to have to get rid of high scores because of a spot or 2 in which it's possible to farm though.
I agree, disabling high scores is a bit extreme but I'm at a loss for what else to do. We could allow leeching on certain titles, which would in some cases eliminate the need for high score tracking as the max would be reached easily. I'm unsure if TMNT2 maxes at 999. It looks as though it doesnt. Does anyone have an idea?
But having leeching open for any title would completely ruin it, and take all the fun away from playing the game in the first place. Which is why we are here, isnt it?

An interesting example is Jaws. You can finish the game in 5 minutes, or leech your heart out indefinitely. We disabled high scoring on this game, it seemed the best option.

Quote:
I could be wrong but it appears that Twin Galaxies let a game go on indefinitely if possible. Do they really not have a rule to account for this sort of thing?
In previous incarnations of TG (pre Knucklez/Adler era) they have had "general" rules which cover all games. This would include things such as 1 credit only, 1 player etc and also had a clause for "leeching". It was similar to the rules that RU has.
However if a game required more in-depth rules (eg Super Mario World type of games) then they were included in the game's rules.

IMO its way too much hassle to have specific rules for each game, even rules for specific sections of games.

kmr214's score is a hard one for me. They don't wait around long, but you can tell they aren't making an effort to defeat the boss and progress to the next level.
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Old 12-03-2014, 11:51 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Re: Tmnt 2

It's an interesting issue. Seems like the problem with the specific limit is the difficulty in verifying the score of an unfamiliar title, though it still may be the most sensible option. Like so many other problems in the world it would be solved if we could only rely on the honor system... rats.

Incidentally, I think TMNT 2 on Gameboy should have highscores disabled. There is a level in which you can kill A LOT of mousers endlessly and I don't think there is a way to properly control it. It's also an example of a game that would not work with the across-the-board limit.

Also, I just noticed that high scores on The Simpsons Escape From Camp Deadly on Gameboy have been disabled. I think it is probably due to an area where it appears almost like you can kill spiders indefinitely but there is a specific limit set on the number of boomerangs you can throw, after which a bee will fly down and automatically kill you. You can go for a ~10 minutes or so if careful the first time but the number you can throw decreases with each life after the bee kills you. For this reason I don't think the scores should be disabled (unfortunately I had a really good run as the top score that I lost, haha).

Last edited by Uter; 12-04-2014 at 12:06 AM..
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