[Dojah]

Originally Posted by Kong

Scientific method does not require mathematics.

You are right it does not require it but in this case of prayer you would almost need to have something mathematical because of undecidability.

Originally Posted by Kong

One flawed test does not mean all tests are flawed.

Of course not.

Originally Posted by Kong

There have been a couple prayer tests. The most famous one, and the one you are referring to, was conducted by the John Templeton Foundation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. The Templeton Foundation is a Christian organization with one mission, find any scientific proof that god exists. They are biased. The prayer experiment was supposed to prove that prayer does work. They had to admit that their experiment found no evidence that this was true.

I was only refering to this because you have brought this up a couple times as if it was scientifical fact...which it is not. It wasnt even a scientific test.

Originally Posted by Kong

I have not said the placebo effect does not exists. I have not said that religion can not produce a strong placebo effect. In fact my point is the opposite. Placebos are very strong. Religion is one of the strongest placebos. Placebos are not by themselves bad. Making decisions for other people (education and public policy, social norms and taboos etc.) based on the effects of your personal placebos is wrong.

I agree nothing should be forced on anyone at anytime regarding religion, but whats the difference between someone making decisions based on religion, and someone making decisions based on athiesm? Especially forced. Wouldnt disregarding religion for atheism beliefs, be the same thing you are fighting against? Would this not be considered a forcefull action? It goes both ways IMO.

1. A religious person talks about god, believes in him etc...forcefully puts it on others around him.
2. An athiest person talks about no god, does not believe in the fairy tails, etc...forcefully puts it on others around him.
Whats the difference?

Originally Posted by Kong

I often try to tear down the effect of people's personal placebos. I think this would be an evil thing for me to do except the reason why I do it is because people often mistakenly assume that the placebo that works for them should be forced on everyone. That is very untrue and this is the reason why I am fighting against the value of religion. A placebo should never be forced on anyone.

Whats the difference between these religious people who assume what works for them should work for others, and an athiest who assumes what works for him should work for others? IMO an athiest is doing the exact same as a religous person but just on the opposite side of the spectrum.

Originally Posted by Kong

Claim. Taking 2 aspirin will relieve a headache. The aspirin test: Use a double blind experiment. Find 100 people with headaches. Give 50 of them a sugar pill (placebo). Give the other 50 aspirin. Come back in 30 minutes and compare results.

1. Claim. Praying for someone will relieve their headache. The prayer test: Use a double blind experiment. Find 100 people with headaches. Pretend to pray for 50 of them (placebo). Pray for the other 50 patients. Come back in 30 minutes and compare results.
2. Claim. Touching the Shroud of Turin will cure a headache (and any other aliment, many Christians claim this is proof of divine miracles). The miracle test. Use a double blind experiment. Find 100 people with headaches. Blindfold them. Let 50 of them touch a t-shirt (placebo). Let the other 50 touch the Shroud of Turin. Come back in 30 minutes and compare results.

What is the difference in these three experiments?

Well the shroud and the aspirin seem reasonable. The praying one does not fit in that though. Just like tests of the brain, and thought there should be measurements of brain activity. Thers is way to many variables to even try this test of prayer scientifically. In order to test something you would need to know exactly what you are testing. Did these people all pray? Who did they pray to? Where the people who prayed even religious? Like a test of brain thought you could see what part of the brain is active, how long they are in thought, tons more. Science could not be considered valid if there is no way to see if parts of the experiment were even done(How do we know they even prayed)