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Go Back   Retro Uprising > Other > Debate

View Poll Results: Ban Bullfighting?
Yes 9 52.94%
No 8 47.06%
Voters: 17. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 08-01-2010, 12:28 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Spanish Bullfighting

On July 28, 2010 Catalonia became the second region in Spain to ever ban it's
national past time, the first being the Canary Islands in 1991. But in your opinion
is this a step foward in Spain, or is the abandoment of their culture rediculous to you?

Ban_on_bullfighting_in_Catalonia Ban_on_bullfighting_in_Catalonia
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Old 08-01-2010, 01:01 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Re: Spanish Bullfighting

If it's just the stuff where you wave a flag and the bull gores you that's fine, but when they are stabbing the poor things it becomes ridiculous, and an embarrassment to the human race.
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Old 08-01-2010, 01:22 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Re: Spanish Bullfighting

I think bullfighting is retarded but I can accept it if the bull is spared. Killing it is just wrong.
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Old 08-01-2010, 02:28 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Re: Spanish Bullfighting

I don't think it should be banned, hmm... we are facing off against a bull that weighs in at around two tons, and it's okay for it to gore me and possibly kill me, and all I get to do is wave a flag at it.
If it is okay for the bull to gore a person, then a person facing off against it should be able to defend himself.

If bull fighting should be banned, why not boxing and UFC fighting, people can die from injuries sustained during these fights.

Bullfighting may be stupid, but I don't think it should be banned altogether.

---------- Post added at 12:28 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:20 AM ----------

The actual kill strike is clean and painless. The matador must stab it through the heart and kill it instantly, and if it fails he must sever the spinal cord to spare the bull any further pain.

Also, sometimes a matador may choose to spare the bull's life.

Like I said, if the bull is capable of goring me, I should be capable of defending myself in a somewhat equal manner.

Spanish-style bullfighting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That page is about how structured bullfighting really is. It may be cruel to an extent, but the bull is just as capable of killing the matador, as the matador is capable of killing the bull.
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Old 08-01-2010, 02:52 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Re: Spanish Bullfighting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Demon-Mask View Post
I don't think it should be banned, hmm... we are facing off against a bull that weighs in at around two tons, and it's okay for it to gore me and possibly kill me, and all I get to do is wave a flag at it.
If it is okay for the bull to gore a person, then a person facing off against it should be able to defend himself.

If bull fighting should be banned, why not boxing and UFC fighting, people can die from injuries sustained during these fights.

Bullfighting may be stupid, but I don't think it should be banned altogether.

---------- Post added at 12:28 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:20 AM ----------

The actual kill strike is clean and painless. The matador must stab it through the heart and kill it instantly, and if it fails he must sever the spinal cord to spare the bull any further pain.

Also, sometimes a matador may choose to spare the bull's life.

Like I said, if the bull is capable of goring me, I should be capable of defending myself in a somewhat equal manner.

Spanish-style bullfighting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That page is about how structured bullfighting really is. It may be cruel to an extent, but the bull is just as capable of killing the matador, as the matador is capable of killing the bull.
Another one of your retarded posts? They are coming in daily now.
You act as if this is an agreement the bull and matador have.

---------- Post added at 07:51 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:43 AM ----------



---------- Post added at 07:52 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:51 AM ----------

Looks like these matadors are hitting the mark for the clean, no suffer kill.
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Old 08-01-2010, 03:15 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Re: Spanish Bullfighting

It's a cultural thing imo. I don't really see anything wrong with bull fighting.I like it.
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Old 08-01-2010, 03:33 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Re: Spanish Bullfighting

To each their own, it's a cultural thing way across the sea. I'm sure they don't like they way we do things.
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Old 08-01-2010, 03:39 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Re: Spanish Bullfighting

@DM- I wouldn't say it's retarded but I agree with steven about the flaw in the argument. The bull is giving no consent and he's not enjoying it. He's being riled up and slowly toyed with before the kill. As the picture above shows it's not always very quick and the bull suffers a lot. I think it's wrong to do that but I can accept that it's a cultural difference and it's not like we don't slaughter cows by the millions anyways.
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Old 08-01-2010, 03:42 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Re: Spanish Bullfighting

I believe it's part of Human nature to enjoy such things, and what I mean is the 'dark side' of Human nature {the dark stranger} which isn't generally spoken of in 'polite society'.
I personally believe that Everyone has a dark side, but that most of us are more light than dark - and that's a good thing.



Also I must agree with the point about the risk shared by the Matador, who may be maimed or killed themselves during the match.
Wasn't that the originally intended point of this thing, that it be a battle to the death?

Is it possible that the Global society has become too Politically Correct for this sport to continue ? -
and just to be clear I am not personally in support of it myself, but I can see how this may be used as a precedent to begin going after violent sports like Hockey, Boxing, and the like.
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Old 08-01-2010, 03:43 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Re: Spanish Bullfighting

The suck part about it is were does the meat go? Seems like a waste.
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Old 08-01-2010, 07:13 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Re: Spanish Bullfighting

Welcome to Thunderdome!!!! Two men enter, one man leaves.
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Old 08-01-2010, 10:47 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Re: Spanish Bullfighting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reaperx887 View Post
The suck part about it is were does the meat go? Seems like a waste.
People from the US and anywhere that there is an abundance of food tend to waste much of it. Besides I think Spaniards eat bull testicle soup and penis tacos or something like that...not sure if they eat the bulls that fight, but I would eat it...the bull meat not just the loins.

---------- Post added at 10:47 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:45 AM ----------

Oh and SJB, did you change the question? I put yes on it originally but I'm for bull fighting. I don't want it banned. Could you hook me up if you can please?
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Old 08-01-2010, 11:11 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Re: Spanish Bullfighting

I never changed the question, mods are the only people who can change your choice.
Sorry.
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Old 08-01-2010, 11:23 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Re: Spanish Bullfighting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Demon-Mask View Post
we are facing off against a bull that weighs in at around two tons, and it's okay for it to gore me and possibly kill me, and all I get to do is wave a flag at it.
If it is okay for the bull to gore a person, then a person facing off against it should be able to defend himself.
The human has a choice to participate. The bull does not. Big difference. What if the matador was randomly selected the same as we pick someone for jury duty? What if we forced you to be the matador?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Demon-Mask View Post
If bull fighting should be banned, why not boxing and UFC fighting, people can die from injuries sustained during these fights.
Mutual consent. Feeding Christians to lions is a better analogy than UFC. So, should we reopen the Colosseum and force slaves to fight to the death or have we, as a society, fully matured past that yet?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Demon-Mask View Post
The actual kill strike is clean and painless.
BS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reaperx887 View Post
To each their own, it's a cultural thing way across the sea. I'm sure they don't like they way we do things.
We are not forcing them to ban it, they are choosing to do so on their own because their culture is changing. Culture should not be stagnant. "Because my ancestors liked it", is not a significant excuese to justify anything.

Dog and cock fighting are part of American history. Should we legalize forcing dogs and chickens to fight to the death for gamblers? If anyone is pro-bullfighting and anti-dog and cock fights I would love to hear your logic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reaperx887 View Post
The suck part about it is were does the meat go? Seems like a waste.
I assume/hope it is eaten but even if it is not there is so much other food waste in the western world that it would not be significant.

It makes for a great game though. Bull Fighter

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Last edited by Kong; 08-01-2010 at 11:26 AM..
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Old 08-01-2010, 11:39 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Re: Spanish Bullfighting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reaperx887 View Post
The suck part about it is were does the meat go? Seems like a waste.
If I'm not mistaken, all the meat is donated to charities.

But I've seen some Bull fights on TV, that final blow doesn't always do the job,
sometimes they have to do it a few times to finally put down the bull.

The amazing thing is, these Bullfighters are HUGE in Spain, like actors in the US
and Soccer players in Brazil, if you do good, you'll get large deals with companies.

@Kong: I know Spanish people who are against dog/cock fighting but are pro bull
fighting, their arguement is that it's a national event that has been going on for
centuries like La Tomatina or the Running of the Bulls, and because of that they
want to maintain tradition, similar to 19th Century China refusing to change their ways.
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Old 08-01-2010, 01:50 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Re: Spanish Bullfighting

I normally think it's best not to interfere with other places cultures, clubbing seals, waling (sp) off the coast of china, killing dolphins, it's all good.
This is different, this is happening for entertainment only. It's disgusting, and it's no different than dog fighting or cock fighting in that respect.
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Old 08-01-2010, 01:52 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Re: Spanish Bullfighting

First of all, the matador is severely outmatched in this case, the bull can weigh up to two tons and has the ability to kill the matador as much as the matador has the ability to kill the bull.

Second, it is a cultural thing that has been around for a very long time, why should people be forced to give up their culture.

Third, we slaughter an immense amount of cows daily, and the cows we slaughter has no chance to fight back.

Fourth, the bull doesn't have a choice, as Kong said, but the bulls for the fights are raised and bred specifically for the purpose of bullfighting, it is all they know and it is their fate from birth. The bull is thus just doing what he spent his whole life preparing for.

Fifth, I know how stupid the idea of killing bulls for sport is, but it happens and it isn't any worse than hunting for sport. When you hunt for sport you hide and kill an animal that has no idea what the hell is about to happen, at least the bull here knows it is going to happen.

Sixth, I never said the sport itself is painless for the bull, just the kill strike. It is either done by going through the heart, which is an instant kill. If the matador misses the heart, he severs the spinal cord which will at least spare the bull any further pain.

So long as the meat isn't just wasted, the bull doesn't die in vain. If the meat is used in any way, then at least the bull's death benefits someone. Like SJB said, the meat is likely donated to charities, meaning the meat is going to people who would probably starve to death otherwise.
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Old 08-01-2010, 02:55 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Re: Spanish Bullfighting

I thought they bled the bull to death.
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Old 08-01-2010, 03:07 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Re: Spanish Bullfighting

"Bullfighting is the most indefensible type of animal abuse. It is the activity of brutal and cruel cowards desperately attempting to hide themselves behind a facade of art, bravery and tradition by challenging a hopelessly overwhelmed opponent.
Contrary to the propaganda of bullfighting apologists, bulls are normally quiet and peaceful animals, and only react violently in self-defense, or the defense of their turf. For a number of hours prior to the bullfight, the bull is held in a tiny isolation cell, devoid of food, water, light or the company of his herd. This confuses and panics the bull, and debilitates him physically and mentally. Just before entering the bullring, the bull is harpooned. He begins the fight for his life already wounded and bleeding. Bullfights do not pit one brave man against one ferocious bull.Instead, a gang of thugs mob an animal who is wounded, crippled and debilitated before he ever enters the bullring.

The rider repeatedly slams his spear deep into the bull’s back and shoulders, ripping and tearing the muscles and tendons that would allow the bull to defend himself, and causing severe blood loss. The wounds and blood loss from the brutal spearing are incredible, and further destroys any claim that this is a fair fight. Often, the bulls are so thoroughly disabled by their torture they literally crawl or collapse completely in an attempt to escape their persecutors.
It is only after the exhausted, confused and terrified bull has endured hours of abuse, crippling wounds and incredible blood loss at the hands of bullfighters, that the brave matador displays his “courage.” The bullfighter performs tricks and humiliates the exhausted and dying bull who can barely stand and defecates and urinates uncontrollably.
Bullfighting propaganda claims that the sword should hit the heart and instantly kill the bull. This almost never happens. The best chance the bull has of a relatively quick death is when he is stabbed in the lungs, in which case he vomits blood out of his nose and mouth, and drowns in his own blood. Often the bull is stabbed over and over.
Once stabbed by the long sword, the bullfighters try to force as much movement as possible from the bull, so the sword will hack his insides to pieces and force him to go down, where he will endure more torture.
Finally the bull can no longer stand, and he goes down in complete submission. Then brave bullfighter, knife in hand, walks up to the exhausted, dying bull to cause more torment. The thug stabs the bull in the back of the neck, and then savagely rips the knife back and forth to destroy the bull’s spinal cord. The devastation of the knife renders the bull paralyzed, but still alive and alert. The paralyzed by still conscious bull is dragged around the bullring for the final pleasure of the bloodthirsty mob."
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Old 08-01-2010, 03:37 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Re: Spanish Bullfighting

@DM's last post.
  1. Seriously? To argue that the bull has any chance at all is absurd. If a bull could ever win then there would bookies taking bets on the bull.
  2. Poor excuse to do anything. You are saying it is ok to do something you know is horrible as long as several other people did it first.
  3. We slaughter cows humanly and quickly for food, not slowly and barbaric to pass time.
  4. Many slaves and gladiators were bred for single purposes and it was all that they ever knew, yet they still yearned for freedom. We eventually decided it was immoral and regretted that we ever did it.
  5. Hunting for sport typically involves instantly killing the animal and the animal does not spend the last minutes of its life fighting and it lives free its entire life. You think the bull understands he is about to die and you think that makes it better?
  6. What's it matter if the final blow is painless and quick, if everything leading up to it is not? Do you think severing your spinal cord would be painless? Do you think a sword through your heart would be quick, painless, humane?
  7. Whether he dies in vain or not, he suffers in pain for a cheering crowd. I doubt banning bullfights will cause a single person to go without food for a single meal much less starve to death.
How about flag bull fighting? Instead of stabbing the bull to death, the matador tries to tape little rainbow flags to the bull. If the entertainment factor is in the matador risking his life then that should be a fair compromise.

( Click to show/hide )
That's a joke since it would be silly and less entertaining (everyone is there to see blood and death) and still require torturing the bull to make him angry.
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Old 08-01-2010, 04:13 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Re: Spanish Bullfighting

I lived in Spain for a time and think I can comment on this with a little understanding. Let me start by saying I am anti-bullfighting, in the same way I am anti-fox hunting (which was recently banned in the UK, despite its popularity among the mostly wealthy). The idea of killing an animal for pleasure is abhorrent to me.

First off, to say that bullfighters in Spain are as big as footballers in Brazil is a little misleading. In the Spain of, say, Hemingway's time, this may have been true. Not any more - it's not such a big market, particularly since Spain has modernised post Franco's death.

Secondly, to suggest it is an equal contest is absurd. Often bulls are doped before fights and sometimes their horns are blunted to protect matadors, picadors etc. This was not the case in the heyday of the "sport".

Thirdly, and this may not always come across to people not au fait with Spanish culture, there is a kind of reverence towards the bull. Admittedly, bullfighting is a very strange way to show this reverence. The matadors that are loved and admired are the ones who deliver clean kills which often involve one sharp strike with the sword between the shoulders to sever the bull's spinal cord.

Fourthly, the bulls that are reared for bullfighting have a much longer, and much more humane, life than cattle that are intensively farmed for food, particularly in the US (apologies to my transatlantic cousins, but it's true). Fighting bulls do not spend their days crammed into pens barely able to move, up to their ankles in their own faeces and urine, pumped full of growth hormones and antibiotics (which, as an aside, reduce their efficacy in treating infection in humans) before meeting death with an electrified bolt between the eyes.

Fifthly, the vote in Catalonia needs to be seen in some kind of context. Catalonia, while a semi-autonomous region of Spain, views itself (for the most part) as an independent nation with its own culture, language and values. This intensified before the Spanish Civil War, was surpressed by Franco and his Fascist government and has reawakened since his death. There is a strong feeling of Catalan nationalism and pride and many commentators view this vote as a further step for Catalonia to move away from Spain culturally and strengthen and reinforce its argument for autonomous nationhood.

All of that said, I'm not a vegetarian so maybe my view is slightly tainted by the possibly hypocritical view (in some opinions) that it's OK to kill animals in one way but not another. I hope that one day we'll evolve beyond the need to kill for food as much as I hope we'll stop killing for fun. Would be much greener and go a long way to eradicating world hunger too.

I forgot to add (hence this edit) that Kong is right - it does make for a fun and different video game.

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Old 08-01-2010, 06:35 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Re: Spanish Bullfighting

Okay, so if Spain cannot have it's bullfighting, then Canada cannot have it's seal clubbing and Japan cannot have it's whaling.

Also, the flag bullfighting may have been a joke, but I'd still find it enjoyable to watch. I find it more entertaining to watch the matador put his life on the line, than the actual violence against the bull.

Spanish bullfighting uses flags, but they are more like spears and are jabbed into the general area of the shoulder blades.

Why is it okay to kill bulls in one way but not the other?
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Old 08-01-2010, 06:45 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Re: Spanish Bullfighting

If you don't have the common sense to tell the difference then there is no point in trying to explain it to you.
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Old 08-01-2010, 06:50 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Re: Spanish Bullfighting

I know the difference in the killing, I understand that one way is more humane than the other, I understand that both are bred and raised just for the purpose of dying for the sake of humans.

I just don't get why we can justify one without justifying the other. Cows and bulls are generally raised for the purpose of dying, so why can we let them die one way and not the other. Why does killing them at all qualify as humane? I don't know, it's just how it works, it's how it's always worked and how it will probably always work.
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Old 08-01-2010, 07:26 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Re: Spanish Bullfighting

Because one of those ways in nothing more than torture, to put smiles on disgusting individuals faces.
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