XBOX Live Suspension

[jim5cents]

So I don't know how, and I don't know why, but I have suspended from xbox live for 24 hours.

my best guess is that i got reported by some cry baby because of the beat down i was giving in mw2. i was also drinking, so there is a possibility that i said something inappropriate.

has anyone else gotten a suspension from xbl?

[samejamesbond]

Don't feel too bad about it, check out this guy:

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x1/LDS_AUTONAMUS/se7ensins/scarsrecord001crop.jpg

Maybe his desendants can finally be able to use his Xbox 360.

[Mareeps]

I think Microsoft overreacted.

[DrunkN]

I think Microsoft overreacted.
Well they are very clear in their Terms of Service. I don't see why everyone complains. *sarcasm*

When I joined X-Box Live I actually scrolled through the Terms of Service. It took me six minutes to hit the bottom at full speed, which is quite fast.

[CatalystiCam]

when I was on the phone with them setting it up they just told me to skip the terms of service and agree.

I don't know if i've been repped yet but it's at 3 out of 5 stars. Probably just the default but leaders of L4D2 yesterday kept kicking me before we even started... I'm not sure why this is just in the lobby I'd get kicked eventually for doing absolutely nothing. twice in a row that happened and this was my first time trying L4D 2 online and I had no issues like this on the original or Doom online. Third time I tried I just joined a game in progress.

With Doom also I can't even join a lobby it always winds up making me make my own. I think I have some sort of connection issues that makes me lose a connection every 10 seconds or so so while I'm searching for a lobby it always tells me that the connection timed out and makes me create my own... why?

[Mareeps]

Well they are very clear in their Terms of Service. I don't see why everyone complains. *sarcasm*
Yeah, but suspended until the end of the year 9999? Microsoft clearly overdid it on the ban.

[samejamesbond]

If he discovers the secret to immortality, then it woun't be a problem.

[DrunkN]

Maybe they did have a reasonable life expectancy date, but then someone said "Just to be sure.".

[Dudebro]

So I don't know how, and I don't know why, but I have suspended from xbox live for 24 hours.

my best guess is that i got reported by some cry baby because of the beat down i was giving in mw2. i was also drinking, so there is a possibility that i said something inappropriate.

has anyone else gotten a suspension from xbl?
It was almost certainly because you said something inappropriate. 24 hour suspensions are for this kind of thing. Either you said something really over the line or the person was very sensitive. I swear like a sailor and I've yet to get reported for it. Maybe because my swearing is directed at myself(like when I die), did you directly insult someone? All it takes is one report and the enforcement team can pull up your voice chat to review it. If I remember correctly it starts at 24 hours and goes to a week for the second offense, be careful.

I can assure you it's not for being good at MW2. Almost every banned/suspended person claims that same thing and it's just silly. If people file false complaints they get in trouble not you. Sorry if that bruises your ego. Besides that I regularly beast on noobs and I never got a suspension for it. ;)

In the future just remember to treat the voice chat like you're posting on RU, pg-13. It sucks but there's a lot of easily offended people out there.

Btw I never got banned from live but I got suspended from the forum for a few days. All I did was insult some known troll and he reported me. I didn't swear or anything, just directly insulted him.



@SJB- where is that article from? They say he unwittingly downloaded epsilon? How do you accidentally d/l something off Xbox live? I believe that he was one of the many modders who got a lifetime ban and now he's looking for sympathy. When they say banned until some ridiculous number it just means a life time ban, for that console. Many other places do the same thing, Ikariam for example, they ban people until like 2099 or something like that. I bet it's so whatever program they use doesn't get confused or something.

I don't know if i've been repped yet but it's at 3 out of 5 stars.
The stars mean nothing. They were supposed to show if a user is bad or not but pretty much everyone has 5 starts except newbs.

Probably just the default but leaders of L4D2 yesterday kept kicking me before we even started... I'm not sure why this is just in the lobby I'd get kicked eventually for doing absolutely nothing. twice in a row that happened and this was my first time trying L4D 2 online and I had no issues like this on the original or Doom online. Third time I tried I just joined a game in progress.No offense but were you talking before they kicked you? Many people boot anyone who sounds like a kid because of all the morons who give the rest a bad name. Live is full of little kids talking trash and thinking they're cool.

With Doom also I can't even join a lobby it always winds up making me make my own. I think I have some sort of connection issues that makes me lose a connection every 10 seconds or so so while I'm searching for a lobby it always tells me that the connection timed out and makes me create my own... why?This could be the reason those guys kicked you. If they can see your latency then they'd boot you for possibly lagging the game. It happens a lot so don't feel singled out.
Doom may not have dedicated servers because it's not a big game and it might not be your connection at all. One way to find out is to do a connection test from the xbox. If it says your connection is strict or limited then you'll have connection issues. It needs to say open.

[CatalystiCam]

No offense but were you talking before they kicked you? Many people boot anyone who sounds like a kid because of all the morons who give the rest a bad name. Live is full of little kids talking trash and thinking they're cool.


I aint one of those kids DB. I'm in high school which is gr. 9-12 here so confusion may have been caused in the past. So no my voice is generally pretty deep and besides I don't have a mic since I bought an arcade console and not a pro or elite but my buddies from school have been bugging me to buy one. I know what you mean though, I've stumbled into lobbies and have heard kids screaming into the mics and crap. I just mute them but they seem to be the only ones I can hear since I think you need to have a headset to hear commentary better, correct? Kids piss me off though since a lot of them kill you when you're on their team for laughs especially in doom I had to keep killing some kid in co-op otherwise he'd kill me while I'm trying to proceed :rolleyes:

This could be the reason those guys kicked you. If they can see your latency then they'd boot you for possibly lagging the game. It happens a lot so don't feel singled out.
Doom may not have dedicated servers because it's not a big game and it might not be your connection at all. One way to find out is to do a connection test from the xbox. If it says your connection is strict or limited then you'll have connection issues. It needs to say open.

It's actually fine when I test it I normally read at a full meter on doom or maybe missing one little tick thing but I only seem to have issues with doom lagging when I play and I mean it has lagged once or twice but that was rare and I've had a lot of times where it's completely fine I just am not allowed to connect to other peoples games for whatever reason :-\

[Dudebro]

I aint one of those kids DB. I'm in high school which is gr. 9-12
Yeah that's kind of what I meant anyways. When I say kid I mean under 18. I didn't mean you are one of those annoying though. My point is anyone who sounds young is a possible idiot on XboxLive.

[CatalystiCam]

I can see that. I just raised my MTu to 4000-something and it works better now but I still have the same problem with doom, I can only create my own lobbies.

[Dudebro]

I would have to assume it's just crappy because not many people care about the game.

[CatalystiCam]

theres interest but I still haven't gotten a 4-person game yet. Other people are too impatient :-/

[Dudebro]

Can't be all that much interest if you can't even get a four player game going.

[CatalystiCam]

I don't know there is but I always just say ok at two because the people are so impatient that they leave after a minute. I'm trying to get everyone I know to buy it though.

[jim5cents]

I can assure you it's not for being good at MW2. Almost every banned/suspended person claims that same thing and it's just silly. If people file false complaints they get in trouble not you. Sorry if that bruises your ego. Besides that I regularly beast on noobs and I never got a suspension for it.

no, ego not bruised. i'm definately not a hutch or seannaners caliber player. i'm just like everyone else that is competent, a lot of 1:1 games, several positives, a few negatives. either way, i prefer to think it was beasting + trolling that resulted in the suspension.

did you directly insult someone
i was also drinking

it is fuzzy...extremely likely.

[Dudebro]

Well next time just turn off your mic when you get drunk and you should be fine.

[jim5cents]

yeah, i know...thanks for the advice.

[fungusman]

This generations online (dis)abilities are pathetic. Mandatory patches that remove and add stupid stuff you don't want, restricting users to access their payed content, drm, wonky game matching. It's funny that 1997 online gaming surpasses what loads of crap we, stupidly, pay for today. Star craft 2 subscription based? McDonald's ads on an already payed for XboxLive account? What a joke, hope someone hacks their servers and destroys EVERYTHING.

Ugggggggggg.....

[CatalystiCam]

I've had a few scenarios pissing me off yesterday. Wanted to play dead air on advanced and the same guy was running the only campaign in that. Kept kicking me from his game lobby then I tried to join an in progress game and it was his. He shot me and got everyone to kill me and then he said I'm an white racist.......... What!?? I didn't even have the mic at the time so it makes no sense. I just sent the guy 2 msgs unloading on how much of a retard he is but I watched my language otherwise the racist would probably be even more of a racist and get me banned. Whoever says racism only works whites against blacks is crazy. I'm sorry but that's just so stupid. I didn't do a thing to him. Edit: No, I'm probably one of the most multi-cultural friendly guys out there but black people calling me racist just because of my colour ticks me off.

Another time I was playing with kids my age and I got through half a level, never shot anyone or did anything to tick anyone off I'm actually a wicked kill with a sniper and kill all the special infected. They kicked me and then I just asked why? All I got was a message saying "Noob! You are a Noob and we wanted your gun".

There are too many jerks there but I've found a cool couple my brothers age I play a campaign with often. also members from my other forum and kids from school.

[Dudebro]

Mandatory patches that remove and add stupid stuff you don't want
You don't have to accept them if don't mind staying offline. Once you connect online though you have to play the way the developers want.

restricting users to access their payed content
You mean like when you can't get online after a ban? If so then can you blame them? If you do something bad enough to get banned you should lose you access to online. If stuff is saved to your HD you should be fine.

It's funny that 1997 online gaming surpasses what loads of crap we, stupidly, pay for today.
I disagree. I prefer the way it is now with actual moderation compared to the old way of letting the host handle all issues. I used to play Half life online and the hosts would screw everyone else over any chance they got.

Star craft 2 subscription based?
If this is true it's a terrible decision. I won't buy it.

McDonald's ads on an already payed for XboxLive account?
Does it really bother you? I see the little ad and I just ignore it. It's not like it's playing before you can do anything like on youtube or cnn.

@cam- I'm starting to think there's more to the story. Yes there's a lot of idiots on Live but you seem to have something that irritates people instantly.

[samejamesbond]

I hate to admit it, but I think there's another side to the story Cameron.

[jim5cents]

Star craft 2 subscription based? ... ..

ha...at this rate, duke nukem will be released before starcraft.

I hate to admit it, but I think there's another side to the story Cameron. .

i'll admit, cam, you have grown on me, and most of us, i would imagine. but when you first showed up at evg and ru, you definately gave off all of the noob/newbie warning signs. don't take offense because with experience and time put into it, you have grown out of that title. i would expect that you might have the same learning curve on live as well. be teflon, and let the stuff just slide off you. you will find your xbl stride.

[CatalystiCam]

I don't mind much but it didn't make sense since you don't just kick people for no reason or because "they're racist automattically" even though they have no mic and weren't there for more than 10 seconds. People there just seem to do stupid crap I've noticed. I hate being kicked from games for nothing. I'm being completely honest when I say I never shot them and I'd say, yeah. I'm great at L4D.

[Demon-Mask]

Star craft 2 subscription based?
That would be ruining a good thing.

[samejamesbond]

If it becomes subscription based, Blizzard will get Zerg Rushed.
Big Time.

[Demon-Mask]

If it becomes subscription based, Blizzard will get Zerg Rushed.
Big Time.
But Blizzard will have anticipated the rush, and will counter with a Zealot rush and their photon cannons. Stops Zerg rush every time.

[Dudebro]

2 bunkers + 8 marines = dead zerg rush

[jim5cents]

2 bunkers + 8 marines = dead zerg rush

and a siege tank or two never hurt.

back on topic, i finally did get a response from xbl on what my suspension was all about. someone reported my profile for violation of the code of conduct.

best guess, someone thought i was being unsporting, and wanted to report me for something, and they got me on my motto.

[CatalystiCam]

what's your motto if you don't mind saying?

[Dudebro]

best guess, someone thought i was being unsporting, and wanted to report me for something, and they got me on my motto.
If your motto broke the TOS then it was only a matter of time. It's very possible that you pissed someone off and they reported you out of spite but you did give them the ammo to shoot you with so to speak. Even if you try to use substitute words/numbers or w/e you'll still get in trouble. Also if you've changed your profile while the offensive material is in there you can be suspended more times depending on how many times you edited it and left that stuff in. Annoying but it's their rules.

[CatalystiCam]

My motto is just "Doom Veteran". Can't think of anything better.

Jim, do you have any of the following?

Doom
Perfect Dark
Left 4 Dead 1 and/or 2
Red Alert 3

On 360?

[Kugyince]

Remember not to upset the angsty pre-teens, Jim.

[samejamesbond]

Remember not to upset the angsty pre-teens, Jim.

http://caedis.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/oh_noes.jpg

I haz been ofend3d.

[Dudebro]

Remember not to upset the angsty pre-teens, Jim.
Well he can still do that as long as he keeps his profile PG-13(or even PG). Don't give them the rope to hang you with and you'll be fine.

[Kugyince]

It's a shame it has to be that way. But I don't see any other way around it.

Is there a way to single out gameplay to those of your own age group?

[samejamesbond]

It would be a smart idea, but unfortunately you can't.

[Kugyince]

It would be a nice feature to incorporate in the future.

[samejamesbond]

But it isn't like younger people are dumber than the rest of us.
I know a bunch of intelegent people younger than me.

[Kugyince]

True, maybe we can test their maturity levels and sort them by that?

[Dudebro]

The problem is Microsoft and Sony want the young crowd to buy all their games, even if they aren't legally allowed to(that's what uninformed parents are for!). They cater to the young crowds parents by enforcing rules that most adult think are silly or overbearing. I think it's totally unfair since these same kids shouldn't be allowed to play mature rated games anyways but god forbid we tell parents to control their little angels.

With the addition of cutesy avatars on both 360 and Ps3 this is will only get worse before it gets better imo.

Also grouping by age groups would help but many adults would still report others for all kinds of reasons.

[jim5cents]

@ cam

i do have doom downloaded for xbl, but i haven't played it at least a year, and am not interested in playing it again.

as of late, the online games that i have been playing are cod:mw2, bad company 2, uno, and castle crashers.

for whoever asked what my motto was (and i don't think it was bad) was "CD's? See dez nuts"

[mj23]

for whoever asked what my motto was (and i don't think it was bad) was "CD's? See dez nuts"

i could see someone reporting for that.

[Dudebro]

Yeah that's a rule violation. It's not a serious one but it will get you a 24 hour easily. No sexual references even if they're disguised or vague. I saw someone get one for putting "Fist pumping" in their bio. It's obvious to see why it would get reported but it's actually not offensive. Well, it is offensive if you hate those guido guys on Jersey Shore.

[jim5cents]

Well, it is offensive if you hate those guido guys on Jersey Shore.

YouTube - Snookie gets Falcon Punched! *GUIDDDOO PANNCHHH*


as for the motto, i'm just leaving it as "code of conduct" there is no way i can get in trouble for something that xbox live put there.

[Dudebro]

as for the motto, i'm just leaving it as "code of conduct" there is no way i can get in trouble for something that xbox live put there.
I noticed a lot of people do this same thing. Why not do what I do and mention Retrouprising?

[jim5cents]

i could, but if some retard took fist pumping to mean the sexual act, then i'm sure someone else will take retrouprising to mean some old guy taking viagra.

[Slime Slayer]

Lol

[Dudebro]

Damn, maybe I should change my bio.

[samejamesbond]

YouTube - Snookie gets Falcon Punched! *GUIDDDOO PANNCHHH* (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1Ykyz4lPq0&feature=related)

:bulgy-eyes:

[Demon-Mask]

i could, but if some retard took fist pumping to mean the sexual act, then i'm sure someone else will take retrouprising to mean some old guy taking viagra.
I wouldn't be surprised if someone did.

[OldTimer]

I got suspended once for quoting music lyrics in my profile that had a vague drug reference. Since then I changed it to just mention this site and said 'i am a pineapple' in french to mess with my french wife.

I try to watch my language and am not always successful cause i usually have a good beer buzz
at night. I believe I have been avoided or rated down at times because of this.

Also don't do this.
http://static.funnyjunk.com/pictures/xbox_live_banned.jpeg

[Demon-Mask]

Watching your language can be difficult, especially when you are getting your head shot in.

[samejamesbond]

It's not hard for me, you just need to keep your cool and keep your mouth shut.

[CatalystiCam]

swearing aint aloud? Everyone swears on L4D, including me occasionally. Only time I don't is when little kids are around. Even so I rarely swear. Can I still get reported?

[samejamesbond]

Sure seems that way.

[Dudebro]

Yes cam swearing can get you suspended, if someone reports you and it's bad enough. I swear constantly in Shadowrun and no one has ever reported me, you gotta know your audience.

[samejamesbond]

You gotta know your audience.

Yeah, it's often Kids
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_8eeDwPF5n5w/Sr93F9IJylI/AAAAAAAAAS8/_XxZ5whUumU/s320/632px-Onion_Knight_Dissidia_CG_render.png

Babies
http://moesucks.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/tidus.jpg

and Cowards
http://nintendookie.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/edward.jpg

Who report on others.

[Dudebro]

You forgot- people who don't wanna listen to some kid swearing the whole time their mic is on. I haven't reported anyone for swearing but I have reported people for being racist.

[samejamesbond]

Yeah, there are a bunch of intolerant jerks on Xbox Live.
It's disturbing that one person can hate someone for what they are and not who they are.

[Dudebro]

That's why they have a report feature. There is nothing cowardly about reporting someone breaking the rules.

[Kugyince]

A contest on who can report the other first!

[samejamesbond]

Of Course.

[Dudebro]

Why do people seem to have a problem with reporting over Xboxlive but no one seems to have a problem with reporting on a site like RU(or do they?)? If someone is breaking the rules you can report them. If the mods don't think it's bad enough no action will be taken. If a user reports without a good reason enough they will get in trouble. What's the problem? Is it that immature "no snitchin" rule?

[Kugyince]

This isn't a bash on online gaming. I just hate the idea of someone reporting another person because they beat them in a game. Got a good friend who constantly gets accused of cheating on Madden '10 just because he's really, really good at the game.

[Dudebro]

I just hate the idea of someone reporting another person because they beat them in a game.
Well I guess it's a good thing you can't get in trouble for people filing false reports. In fact the person filing bad reports gets in trouble. Tell your friend he has nothing to worry about as long as he doesn't break any rules.

[StarfoxFan2009]

How would it be cheating if he's really good at Madden? whoever he played is obviously a whiny jerk who can't stand to lose

[CatalystiCam]

I reported a jerk a few days ago. Just joined a vs. match and was spectating some random guy. He made a good move and I think I was laughing at the teammates for not noticing.

Dude told me to shut up I think and from there on I had the odd comment as I always do and he kept telling me to shut up. Called me a fat american... something, said I'm not from usa and the guy just said he didn't care all of a sudden where I was from even though he was going off on americans for like a minute straight.

This dude wouldn't shut up and I was barely saying anything and he kept swearing out of his mind at me. He also kept doing that family guy crap (Wansta fight about it). Don't remember what I said really but I thing I did make the mistake of swearing at him.

Thid guy was a jerk. Kept shooting me when we were survivors. I never voted to kick him since I had to keep shooting him and insulting his insults and I do use that term lightly since I really didn't say much. First thing I did afterwards was report him.

That's the only harrasment I've had since I'm a fair player, good guy and I don't do anything to deserve a bad rap. This guy started off on me the first time I said something.

The guy was some old british guy I think and that's not the first time I've had this. A lot of btitish people I play ask if I'm american and as soon as I say No, canada they insult the US in some way. Not sure why but they're fine with canada. However, I think this particular guy was just a flamer.

[Dudebro]

Well yeah he's obviously dealing with sore losers who are just trying to intimidate him. It must be working on some level if he's expressed these concerns to Tenser.

It's also worth noting that many cheaters claim this same situation. If you read the account suspension forum most cheaters claim that people filed on them because they're so uber at MW2. It's always funny when the mods come in and explain that the excessive language(for example) in their bio is what got them suspended and not false reports. It's like most people assume that the mods just read the reports and don't follow up to check if there's any truth to the accusation. It's not hard to pull up a profile or a chat log, even more so if you are Microsoft.

He made a good move and I think I was laughing at the teammates for not noticing
So you were laughing while spectating him and he got the wrong idea? If you didn't add comments after the first misunderstanding I bet it wouldn't be the same story. Did you think to say something like "my bad dude I wasn't trying to start anything, you misunderstood me"?
You actually might get in trouble for filing a report if the voice chat shows that you caused it and contributed to the escalation. They might see your report as a way to get back at someone you were mad at. Just sayin, I don't work for them so I dunno how they would handle that situation.

[CatalystiCam]

no, I laughed and was giving him praise on a nice move actually. Besides I wasn't the only one he was randomly flaming.

[StarfoxFan2009]

It shows you how some people are just total and complete idiots.

To be honest, i'm kinda glad i don't have an Xbox 360

[Dudebro]

To be honest, i'm kinda glad i don't have an Xbox 360
Don't go by all the bad stuff you hear. It's like if you watch the news it's almost all bad, good stories aren't interesting. I could go on and on about all the awesome people I've met and all the good times we've had but it wouldn't be as interesting as the racist moron I team killed, right?

[StarfoxFan2009]

Last time i went to my friend's house to play Halo 3 we were playing team sniper on Live and this guy literally went off when i got a lucky headshot just by jumping and shooting

[CatalystiCam]

+1 DB, such a good and valuable point, I have waaaay more great times and meet way more good people than bad.

[Dudebro]

Halo 3 chat is like youtube comments, it's better if you ignore them completely. Same goes for MW2 but not as bad.

[StarfoxFan2009]

It was funny that my team of myself and my friend won off that shot

[Dudebro]

I joined a random Halo3 match one time and within a couple seconds one guy started swearing and screaming at me, for not having a mic. I was just stunned and I left to find a less hostile game.

[StarfoxFan2009]

That's ridiculous. After the match i was in we decided to start playing offline against each other

[jim5cents]

this guy literally went off when i got a lucky headshot just by jumping and shooting

it happens.

YouTube - MW2-AMAZING Knife Throw- Modern Warfare 2 (ORIGINAL)

YouTube - no scope Game Winning kill across map Quarry First Bullet !!!

YouTube - Top 10 Halo 3 Lucky Kills: Episode 13 Honorable Mentions

some of the halo kills are ridiculous.

[samejamesbond]

I joined a random Halo3 match one time and within a couple seconds one guy started swearing and screaming at me, for not having a mic. I was just stunned and I left to find a less hostile game.

That happens to me all the time on Xbox Live, but strangely enough it almost
never happens on PlayStation Network.

Weird Huh?

[CatalystiCam]

PSN is way inferior.

[samejamesbond]

PSN is way inferior.

I've used all three of the consoles, and I have to agree with you.

[Winnebagel]

Same here. PSN is not great in multiplayer, and its DLC is nearly a joke.

The graphics are awesome, and the Blu Ray lovely, but that's about all the positives I can think of on the PS3.

[CatalystiCam]

I asked kids at chool how the psn shopping works and if theres points cards and apparently you can only use a credit card to buy things which is ridiculous since that cuts off half the people there like me that can't do that :-\

I actually prefer the XBL Arcade games more than wii vc since nintendo could care less about the vc and yeah I know the vc has more but at least for XBLA the time is taken to re-do every game and online is often added yet nintendo claims they won't alter a thing in their vc games.

Can you save ghosts in any game for wii vc, no along with other things. So this is what got me with that though, remember wave race? It had advertisements on the courses for n64 and GB back in the day. APparently nintendo took the time to go change all those in game advertisements for the wii and ds but they can't take the time to offer a save ghost function for those racing games. That still has me on why they don't alter these games but yet they do to add advertisements. Think MK64 had the same ad alterations. It's not a big deal but nintendo could at least care about the VC a little.

[Kugyince]

I prefer that they don't alter their VC games, thanks.

[sabby]

I prefer that they don't alter their VC games, thanks.

Except to allow online play maybe.

[jim5cents]

agree ten, but i think i know what he is talking about...Bionic Commando:Rearmed > Bionic Commando

[Kugyince]

Yeah, online play with Secret of Mana would be great.

But don't make the game any easier. Don't allow me to save where I couldn't normally. Don't update the graphics or sound or any of that.

[Dudebro]

Except to allow online play maybe.
River City Ransom multiplayer yes please.

[samejamesbond]

Mario Kart 64 online would rock.

[CatalystiCam]

Yeah, online play with Secret of Mana would be great.

But don't make the game any easier. Don't allow me to save where I couldn't normally. Don't update the graphics or sound or any of that.

I agree that graphics and sound are nice touches to games if anything but it is cool to see better graphics, especially on perfect dark. Not to mention that perfect dark has the proper controls now.

with that being said I can barely recognize Vigilante 8 with the little I've played. Some altering is good.