Mysterious and unexplained

[RU Joe]

I like to think of mysteries simply as things we do not yet understand.
Especially when they're scary mysteries, stories of the unexplained .. my imagination runs wild .. and of course I simply can't get enough!
:smirk:

So why not begin with something I came across yesterday whilst looking at videos on archeological digs: this video featuring a gentleman named Claus Dona, discussing global archeological sites and artifacts found within.

During the video {slideshow} he showed this photo:

http://www.retrouprising.com/img/2014_03/3430.jpg

the inlay for the Eye shines brightly under blacklight or UV LED:


http://www.retrouprising.com/img/2014_03/3431.png
http://www.retrouprising.com/img/2014_03/3432.jpg

Look familiar?
13 steps, Eye on top, must be Santa, Santa Claus {I'm joking}
Of course this is the so - called 'all - seeing eye' or 'devil's eye' printed on U.S. bills.

So what?
This thing is supposed to be more than 5000 years old.
There's more.
On the bottom of this artifact, there is pre - Sanskrit writings {now apparently known as Neo - Tifinagh} alongside inlays showing the constellation of Orion.

http://www.retrouprising.com/img/2014_03/3433.jpg

http://www.retrouprising.com/img/2014_03/3434.jpg
The translation is supposed to be:

'The Son of the Creator comes'

x/
It stood my hair directly on end.
But there's yet more.
Regarding the Neo - Tifinagh writings, this same language has been found written on artifacts from all over the world.
This means that at one time, we all spoke and wrote the same language - I think when the continent of Pangaea was in existence, for me this is the simplest explanation.

Enough from me, what do you guys think of all this?

(http://projectavalon.net/forum4/index.php?)

[Mikman]

Humans didn't exist on Pangaea, at least according to archeologists. I don't know if we all spoke the same language, but the idea of language is probably central to all humanity. I don't know much about the Neo - Tifinagh writings, but some archeologists believe that ancient Africans may have visited North and South America.

As for the U.S.A. bills, rumors always claim that many founding fathers were freemasons, who supposedly had connections to lost ancient societies, but I know of nothing which proves that. Perhaps these ancient inscriptions have some religious meaning, or were created by ancient astronauts from other star systems. These are all possibilities.

[RU Joe]

Humans didn't exist on Pangaea, at least according to archeologists. I don't know if we all spoke the same language, but the idea of language is probably central to all humanity. I don't know much about the Neo - Tifinagh writings, but some archeologists believe that ancient Africans may have visited North and South America.


Archeologists must protect themselves by not making claims which may later be proven wrong, so in that regard I see why they may say Humans didn't exist on Pangaea.
This is beside the fact it's so difficult to prove, since we cannot reasonably date stones and rocks unless there is some kind of organic materials present at the same sites .. and even if there were, those organic materials could have been put there by subsequent visitors other than the original inhabitants, etc.

As for the U.S.A. bills, rumors always claim that many founding fathers were freemasons, who supposedly had connections to lost ancient societies, but I know of nothing which proves that. Perhaps these ancient inscriptions have some religious meaning, or were created by ancient astronauts from other star systems. These are all possibilities.
I think you're right about the freemason symbology, which so far as I understand is one thing they don't hide from the world; in fact they seem proud to pose in their ceremonial garb for pictures, and occasionally at cornerstone settings and other important ceremonies in present times.

The writing has been analyzed and translated by Professor Kurt Schildmann, who was the President of the German Linguistic Association.
He is said {by Claus Dona} to be able to speak and write more than 40 languages perfectly.
This, coupled with the fact Mr. Dona's presentation is about the common features found in archeological sites worldwide with this Neo - Tifnagh found on every continent .. it seems pretty convincing to me when he said this was likely a global language.

Mr. Dona also says that the bible provides some proof in a passage concerning a time when all Humans spoke the same language, until the tower of Babel was built.
I am not religious but am willing to accept this biblical account of common language as a possible historical clue this may have been so.

Yes it could simply be a religious artifact, from people whose god was believed to be from that constellation we know as Orion.
But that wouldn't change the fact this same writing is being found globally, and as far as the theory of Africans visiting both North and South America I say this is entirely possible; it was only a couple of decades ago here in Canada remains of Viking settlements were found in the East, shattering what we are taught in history class about the 'first settlers' to North America.
People got around quite a bit back then it seems.

[Mikman]

Lack of knowledge of these subjects is also due to cultural bias against knowledge which alters one's current view of history, especially when one benefits from such bias. We don't fully appreciate the intelligence and skill of many earlier societies and peoples, especially non-European ones. I don't know if this proves that ancient astronauts visited Earth, but I don't disbelieve that such events happened. Perhaps, when we make first contact with extraterrestrials, they may tell us that they visited us during the past.

[RU Joe]

Well that didn't take long.
I figured we'd make it into a couple of pages at least before UFO's got brought up, but I'm hip.

For the record, I am not religious but if I were to accept a 'god' it would most certainly be an Alien.

http://www.retrouprising.com/img/2014_03/3452.png

^
Not this kind, but it'd sure put the 'fear of god' into me!:tremble::worship:

I believe we are being visited, both in the past and present times, and that it's being covered up by certain governments.

I've read that Mexicans will tell you they're being visited all the time, and watch UFO's flying in and out of mountain ranges there as though there were a base of some kind.
I'm not saying that Mexicans know what the UFO's are, only that they seem to be widely accepted as fact within Mexico.

I do not believe pyramids around the world were constructed by Aliens.
I understand the logic, what with the stones being so massive it makes it difficult to imagine exactly how they were built - which leads to the idea that Aliens may have used some high technology to help people build them.

To that theory I say that there is a lot of Human technology which has been forgotten, and it was that forgotten technology which was used to create the pyramids.

MM:
We don't fully appreciate the intelligence and skill of many earlier societies and peoples, especially non-European ones.I'm glad you put it in this way; I've been thinking for some time now how between England and the US they would have us believe they invented nearly everything, when this is just not so.
If anyone deserves credit for being inventive I say it's the ancient cultures, among them China.
Advanced metallurgy, mechanics, printing, industrial - scale mining {including drilling for oil} .. the ancient Chinese were incredible thinkers.

Then there's the example of the instructions on how to build a light bulb, wires, and batteries on the walls of an Egyptian temple, complete with safety warning:

http://www.retrouprising.com/img/2014_03/3453.jpg

Similar things have been found in Iraq.

http://www.retrouprising.com/img/2014_03/3454.gif

Lack of knowledge of these subjects is also due to cultural bias against knowledge which alters one's current view of history, especially when one benefits from such bias.
I often say how we're being held back as a species in a technological sense, and by extension of that, in an evolutionary sense as well.:weep:
The ruling class owns and operates practically all the news we get to hear, what does or does not get taught to us in schools, but these are matters better discussed in another thread more geared towards conspiracies.
{not theories, conspiracies}:arrogant:

[Mikman]

You pointed out USA and England, which is accurate, except that only refers to modern USA, and not pre-colonial USA, which receives little attention in these terms. I believe that we should put facts ahead of our personal ambitions wherever we concern knowledge and education.

I don't believe that God is an alien, but I believe that aliens believe in Him. Whatever being created the universe would logically exist beyond it, and that excludes aliens. I also don't believe that aliens created every historical object which we can't explain, although some ancient images may indicate extraterrestrials.

[kernzy]

never seen that NWO style pyramid before.
this is interesting chat.
i have seen much "evidence" of ancient UFO visits, carved into ancient stones, Egyptian artifacts, etc. however, they are not so concrete, as they can also be shooting stars/ comets, etc.
i can believe that the world used to have a single universal language. the best reason this is not the case anymore is division.
without dividing people in every way they can, they can hold no power.
pyramids. some say they used to be some kind of power station. also, they they may be stargates of some kind. built by aliens? very probably. built by men in sandals? possibly, but doubtful. some scientists tried to build a very small pyramid using old fashioned techniques, and failed.
to build pyramids of that scale and accuracy, with all the amazing innards of the great pyramid, is highly unlikely of men from 4,000 years ago. it is amazing. however, some guy built his own rock garden on his own, and moved incredible large stones single-handedly, and stated he has rediscovered the lost Egyptian techniques, which consist of using the stone/Earth's magnetic properties, to make the stones almost weightless. (Ed Leedskalnin Coral Castle)
also, there are some cut stones around the globe which are so monstrously huge that they cannot be moved even today.
as for freemasons running the place, is that hard to believe? who are higher up than them?
controlling the media is controlling the people. without control, they are nobodies.

[RU Joe]

never seen that NWO style pyramid before.

Your horse is a bit ahead of the cart; the pyramid with the Eye I posted earlier was said to be over 5000 years old, meaning anyone using this {such as US Federal Reserve} is a copycat.
Likely it had some spiritual meaning, possibly used in ceremonies of some kind.
Now's a good enough time to show you this stone, also in Claus Dona's presentation:

http://www.retrouprising.com/img/2014_03/3473.jpg

Again we are looking at an artifact dated several thousand years, this one showing a being holding the pyramid with the Eye in its right palm, resting its left on the top.

But to further my point about these symbols being long before our time, here is a picture of a stone from a famous site in Bolivia called Puma Punku:

http://www.retrouprising.com/img/2014_03/3474.jpg


At the center of this design is what looks like the symbol used by the National Socialist Party of Germany, but clearly this was carved long before that party ever came together and chose a swastika as their symbol.

i can believe that the world used to have a single universal language. the best reason this is not the case anymore is division.
without dividing people in every way they can, they can hold no power.
I understand what you mean and also the mentality of those people you're referring to, but in this instance we're looking at the drifting apart of the continents themselves over thousands of years which led to people eventually speaking different languages after having been apart for so long.
Perhaps over time the differences were introduced as a means of self - protection?
In any case I don't think the NWO had much to do with this.

to build pyramids of that scale and accuracy, with all the amazing innards of the great pyramid, is highly unlikely of men from 4,000 years ago.

I understand how unbelievable it seems, when looking at the project from a modern building perspective and estimating what would be required to duplicate such feats using current equipment and materials.
As you say, it is a bit difficult to imagine people we've been taught were somewhat primitive as being capable of such great feats.

Those blocks of stone are indeed massive and would require enormous effort to move; so a group of archeological students from France decided to attempt making a few blocks - using forms into which they poured a cement made mostly of sandstone.
After testing their stone blocks compared to the ones in the actual pyramids, they said there was basically no difference where material composition is concerned.

Please understand that this experiment was possible due to the fact the students were able to pour these blocks as cement.
This still does not account for other massive ancient structures such as the interlocking stone slabs found at the Puma Punku site - those really are a mystery, as are other such sites.
there are some cut stones around the globe which are so monstrously huge that they cannot be moved even today.
Like those.
While we're speaking of Puma Punku:


'In assembling the walls of Puma Punku, each stone was finely cut to interlock with the surrounding stones and the blocks fit together like a puzzle, forming load-bearing joints without the use of mortar. One common engineering technique involves cutting the top of the lower stone at a certain angle, and placing another stone on top of it which was cut at the same angle. The precision with which these angles have been utilized to create flush joints is indicative of a highly sophisticated knowledge of stone-cutting and a thorough understanding of descriptive geometry.'

http://www.retrouprising.com/img/2014_03/3475.jpghttp://www.retrouprising.com/img/2014_03/3476.jpg
'Many of the joints are so precise that not even a razor blade will fit between the stones, and are so uniformly cut that they could be interchanged for one another while maintaining a level surface and even joints, technology far in advance of the Tiwanaku's Incan successors more than a thousand years later.'


some guy built his own rock garden on his own, and moved incredible large stones single-handedly, and stated he has rediscovered the lost Egyptian techniques, which consist of using the stone/Earth's magnetic properties, to make the stones almost weightless. (Ed Leedskalnin Coral Castle)
I put that in the same category as the 'Merkabah', crystal energy, and crop circles.
It sounds a bit far out to be true to me.
Or if you prefer, I'll believe it when I see it.;)
as for freemasons running the place, is that hard to believe? who are higher up than them?
controlling the media is controlling the people. without control, they are nobodies.
:sweat:
Man oh man do we need a conspiracy thread in the main forum; I started one ages ago but it got sent to the realm of 18+ social groups {invitation only}.
Let me say just this about that.
There are a lot of stories of secret meetings, and just as many different names for the organizations they're supposed to be members of.
Nevermind them, we'll never know the real truth.

The most important elite groups to pay attention to aren't secret: Trilateral Commission, International Monetary Fund, and the Central Federal Reserve - you will find the same group of people are members of two or all three organizations.
When you see just who those members are you may be shocked, especially when taking their roles in recent history into account.
>:D

[Mikman]

Perhaps the real elite invented the consipiracies of a secret controlling organization because they really control nothing, which is how they make money, and that may scare people so much that they would actually do something about it.

[Dudebro]

I only skimmed this topic for now but a few things caught my attention-
Likely it had some spiritual meaning, possibly used in ceremonies of some kind.
It makes sense that they would come up with that as a symbol. A triangle is one of the most basic shapes humans come up with. Eyes are important and have long been seen as gateways to the soul. Maybe a shady organization copied it years later for nefarious reasons but in ancient times I bet it had no such connections or meanings.

At the center of this design is what looks like the symbol used by the National Socialist Party of Germany, but clearly this was carved long before that party ever came together and chose a swastika as their symbol.
That symbol is ancient and is still used in some asian countries. As far as we know the first time it was used was around 5k BC. The Nazis stole it (and tilted it) because they wanted a good symbol to slap over their existing eagle or w.e it is. There's examples of it all over the world, it means "it is good".

but in this instance we're looking at the drifting apart of the continents themselves over thousands of years which led to people eventually speaking different languages after having been apart for so long.Not thousands, more like hundreds of millions of years. The first mammals didn't appear until after the continent started to break apart and they were nothing like modern primates, they were more like big rats or small bears. As far as we can tell, with scientific evidence, humanity originated in Africa and expanded from there. As people moved further apart they developed different languages. Distance and lack of quick communication made these languages more isolated and distinct. Languages evolve, we see it today all the time.
If you don't believe me then I'll put it in better perspective. If you think humanity existed on pangea then you also believe humans lived alongside dinosaurs for hundreds of millions of years. Are you a creationist?


As for the mystery of how the ancient wonders of the world were built - most likely it was just slave labor. If you can force people to build until they drop dead you can accomplish things that seem impossible. You gotta realize how many people died making these structures. Supposedly the great wall is build on the bones of the slave workers who built it. I'm sure the pyramids are the same way.
A really interesting one is the heads on Easter Island. That place was isolated and the people still managed to drag these enormous pieces of stone across the island with nothing but ropes and back breaking labor. They even made the bottoms rounded to make them less likely to tip over in transport. They found some that fell and were left there, presumably because they were impossible to move. The motivation to make those blows my mind, they must've really believed they mattered.

[D.B. Cooper]

They have recently shown that the pyramids were not built by slaves.

My opinion is that humans have been civilized a lot longer than current so called experts will agree to. I just think people back then were a hell of a lot smarter than we give them credit for. They may not have had the internet and cell phones but I think they had a very advanced civilization. For more on this subject, I suggest Graham Hancock's Fingerprints of the Gods. It's free so why not give it a read?

http://megpugh.com/files/Graham_Hancock_FINGERPRINTS_OF_THE_GODS.pdf

[bearhawk72]

I only skimmed this topic for now but a few things caught my attention-

It makes sense that they would come up with that as a symbol. A triangle is one of the most basic shapes humans come up with. Eyes are important and have long been seen as gateways to the soul. Maybe a shady organization copied it years later for nefarious reasons but in ancient times I bet it had no such connections or meanings.


That symbol is ancient and is still used in some asian countries. As far as we know the first time it was used was around 5k BC. The Nazis stole it (and tilted it) because they wanted a good symbol to slap over their existing eagle or w.e it is. There's examples of it all over the world, it means "it is good".

Not thousands, more like hundreds of millions of years. The first mammals didn't appear until after the continent started to break apart and they were nothing like modern primates, they were more like big rats or small bears. As far as we can tell, with scientific evidence, humanity originated in Africa and expanded from there. As people moved further apart they developed different languages. Distance and lack of quick communication made these languages more isolated and distinct. Languages evolve, we see it today all the time.
If you don't believe me then I'll put it in better perspective. If you think humanity existed on pangea then you also believe humans lived alongside dinosaurs for hundreds of millions of years. Are you a creationist?


As for the mystery of how the ancient wonders of the world were built - most likely it was just slave labor. If you can force people to build until they drop dead you can accomplish things that seem impossible. You gotta realize how many people died making these structures. Supposedly the great wall is build on the bones of the slave workers who built it. I'm sure the pyramids are the same way.
A really interesting one is the heads on Easter Island. That place was isolated and the people still managed to drag these enormous pieces of stone across the island with nothing but ropes and back breaking labor. They even made the bottoms rounded to make them less likely to tip over in transport. They found some that fell and were left there, presumably because they were impossible to move. The motivation to make those blows my mind, they must've really believed they mattered.

I suspect there was likely a relatively simple method they used that we don't know about and can't think of because we like to overthink everything.

I saw something about TV about a French archaeologist believes the Egyptians used an internal ramp to build the pyramids which also used pulleys and counter weights making it much easier to get the stones to the top.

[CrispyChicken]

The swastika originates from way before Hitler used it. It's just a symbol that's been there for a time now. Like DB says, it's supposed to stand for peace. Hitler took it and used it for his party.

[Dudebro]

They have recently shown that the pyramids were not built by slaves.
Got a source or is it in that PDF?

I suspect there was likely a relatively simple method they used that we don't know about and can't think of because we like to overthink everything.
That certainly seems a lot more likely compared to ancient aliens helping them. If aliens helped them then why just that and not some simple stuff like medical advancements that would've saved billions of lives.

[kernzy]

even if you work slaves to death, does not explain the accuracy and intrication of what was achieved. to cut the stones of the inner kings chamber to that accuracy means to use large machine type equipment. to get some guys to get huge stones perfectly flat is almost impossible using hand tools. it would never be flat.
better examples can be found in Peru. that stuff is amazing, and never replicated since.
http://www.world-mysteries.com/mpl_9_giant_stones_Sacsayhuaman.jpg
RU Joe, it is not shocking about the groups you mention. it is blatant. why you think it is a conspiracy when you know about it is madness.
i learned that the pyramid shape in itself generates it's own power. most corporation headquarters tower blocks are basically obelisks. i.e., a pyramid on a tall pedestal.
you can get pyramid growing "bags", or individual plant mini greenhouses, where plants grow much quicker than without it. theres even a guy who built a very basic pyramid with copper pipes, no side walls, and reckons he sits inside it when ill, and it makes him better!!
the massive stones i mention, are truly massive.
this one for example, would have been impossible for any humans to cut from the bedrock and move.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ux8USMO_cnE

[RU Joe]

{knuckles cracking}
:snicker:
H'okay, here we go ..

MM:
You pointed out USA and England, which is accurate, except that only refers to modern USA, and not pre-colonial USA, which receives little attention in these terms. I believe that we should put facts ahead of our personal ambitions wherever we concern knowledge and education.

Agreed.
Many things in history get forgotten, sometimes out of greed or desire for fame, other times out of convenience.
If we put facts first in place of our personal ambitions this would be a far better world to live in; sadly it seems people are easily seduced by power, fame, and wealth.
I don't believe that God is an alien, but I believe that aliens believe in Him. Whatever being created the universe would logically exist beyond it, and that excludes aliens. I also don't believe that aliens created every historical object which we can't explain, although some ancient images may indicate extraterrestrials.
If what Carl Sagan used to say about the possibility of numerous other civilizations in billions of galaxies turns out to be true, all of what you've said is possible.
My guess is they're at various stages of development and levels of awareness; some are like us, others we may consider gods by comparison to ourselves.
Perhaps the real elite invented the consipiracies of a secret controlling organization because they really control nothing, which is how they make money, and that may scare people so much that they would actually do something about it.
They do something we react to, then they use our reaction as the excuse to do something else, is that it?
Like feigning a punch to get someone to attack or block, that way?

DBC:
They have recently shown that the pyramids were not built by slaves.

You mean the discovery of the pay records and such?
I heard about that too.
My opinion is that humans have been civilized a lot longer than current so called experts will agree to.
The problem is like I spoke about earlier in that 'experts' such as Archeologists have to be careful what claims they make lest they be debunked/ discredited.
I just think people back then were a hell of a lot smarter than we give them credit for.
Just 2 generations ago people knew more than we do now about life in general.
I can only imagine what the ancients must have known.
Yes they had advanced societies but at the same time were still barbaric in certain ways :thinking: - on second thought, nothing's changed much.

Crispy:
The swastika originates from way before Hitler used it. It's just a symbol that's been there for a time now. Like DB says, it's supposed to stand for peace. Hitler took it and used it for his party
Yes, that's exactly what I was saying too; the point was to show the pyramid with the Eye was stolen the same way by whoever decided to put it on US bills.
Old symbols put to new use and representation.
Sad, really because the 'swastika' is really striking, especially with the Greek key design leading off the arms in that picture.

BH:
I suspect there was likely a relatively simple method they used that we don't know about and can't think of because we like to overthink everything.

We've been taught to think in certain ways, and this includes the 'overthinking' you mentioned.
When I worked on industrial construction projects years ago, we had simple but effective ways of moving huge objects.
One I remember was an enormous controls cabinet for a {yet larger} rotary kiln; we rolled it along the ground atop 1" steel pipes lain parallel to each other on the floor in the desired direction of travel; slight angles introduced to turn.
Once we cleared a pipe, it would be carefully re - inserted again at the front of the cabinet.
Lifting it was done by crane of course, but I remember thinking how brilliant it was to be able to move such a large and heavy object with relative ease.
:victory:

Kernzy:
to cut the stones of the inner kings chamber to that accuracy means to use large machine type equipment.
This is a very good point.
The small shafts aligned to the stars, and other odd things like what appear to be core drill marks are also found there and at other ancient sites.
To me this proves they had at least some advanced machinery.

i learned that the pyramid shape in itself generates it's own power. most corporation headquarters tower blocks are basically obelisks. i.e., a pyramid on a tall pedestal.

If you're talking about that story of the people who built a pyramid shaped house, and their radio worked without being plugged in, that is due to a perfectly explainable electronics phenomenon called resonance:
If a radio circuit is tuned to a frequency {as indicated by the numbers on its dial} of a nearby radio transmitter, that radio may receive the signal strongly enough to produce sound without further amplification.

Resonance transcends the need for a radio circuit at all; in the US I read there was someone who could hear the music being broadcast from a nearby transmitter in the fillings in their teeth.:D

AS far as the corporate headquarters obelisks are concerned I think they're mainly symbolic.
Phallic and stuff.
you can get pyramid growing "bags", or individual plant mini greenhouses, where plants grow much quicker than without it.

This sounds like those ridiculous upside - down tomato things they were selling a while back. {which didn't work as they claimed}
I'm pretty good with plants and have read many books on the subject and have never heard of pyramid anything for plants before.
theres even a guy who built a very basic pyramid with copper pipes, no side walls, and reckons he sits inside it when ill, and it makes him better!!
Are you sure that it isn't his moonshine still?
the massive stones i mention, are truly massive.

Massive stones are massive!
impossible for any humans to cut from the bedrock and move.
Impossible, you say?

http://www.retrouprising.com/img/2014_03/3501.jpg

Then how did they get there?!!
:dont-know:

[kernzy]

lol.
sir, yes sir!!
bullshit" sound off like you've got a pair of massive stones!!

[D.B. Cooper]

Got a source or is it in that PDF?


No, not in the pdf. I was watching a documentary on Egypt a couple of weeks ago and they said that they could tell by the cloths they were wearing and the food they were eating that the workers were not slaves. Let me see what I can find on the internet regarding the subject.

This was the documentary: http://www.nytimes.com/movies/movie/200710/National-Geographic-Egypt-Secrets-of-the-Pharaohs/overview

Here's you go. Google is your friend. http://news.discovery.com/history/ancient-egypt/pyramids-tombs-giza-egypt.htm
http://www.omg-facts.com/History/The-pyramids-were-not-built-by-slaves/50312

[Mikman]

Many older societies used paid labor, in some form or another. We often tend that we less consider how advanced many older societies were. Ironically, at the same time, we also excuse the somewhat barbaric actions of some older civilizations if it suits us, which is wrong because proper knowledge should always exist beyond personal views.

My main point about the elite is that consipiracy theorists often link economic and environmental problems to selfish, evil cabals of wealthy people, and while I don't doubt that those exist, they may gain wealth and power not from control, but from the lack of it, as in chaos. I don't yet know which is worse.

If God exists, and created all sentient beings (although not in a literal creationist fashion) in the universe, wouldn't they have the same religion that peoples have here?

[RU Joe]

MM:
Many older societies used paid labor, in some form or another. We often tend that we less consider how advanced many older societies were. Ironically, at the same time, we also excuse the somewhat barbaric actions of some older civilizations if it suits us, which is wrong because proper knowledge should always exist beyond personal views.
So true.
But then it all depends on whose version of history you're talking about - it seems there are many.
If God exists, and created all sentient beings (although not in a literal creationist fashion) in the universe, wouldn't they have the same religion that peoples have here?
That would depend on which church leader you ask.

[Mikman]

According to my faith, they would believe the same God, or at least the same religion would exist there also. I don't know what other faiths believe, although I'd like if I knew.

Ultimately, the only version of history is the unbiased one. I don't look at it from any one point of view.

[RU Joe]

How about Unidentified Flying Objects in general?
Back during World War 2 Air Force Pilots called them 'Foo Fighters'.

http://www.retrouprising.com/img/2014_03/3515.jpg

Most of the accounts I've heard of involve glowing objects performing seemingly impossible maneuvers - that is, compared to what the Pilots could reasonably achieve with their own aircraft without risk of stalling or crashing in the process.

The internet suggests there was at one time a special secret investigation conducted by our governments called Project Bluebook.
Project BLUE BOOK - Unidentified Flying Objects (http://www.archives.gov/foia/ufos.html)

Interesting documentation.
I've read the Russians also conducted their own investigations, and even went so far as to issue orders to their MIG Pilots to shoot U.F.O.'s on sight!

http://www.retrouprising.com/img/2014_03/3516.jpg

Enough from me, let's hear what you guys think.

[Mikman]

Perhaps they were rogue extraterrestrials who fled their planet's authorities?

[RU Joe]

Perhaps they were rogue extraterrestrials who fled their planet's authorities?
Sure they could be rogues fleeing authority - but are they with the 'Empire' or the 'Rebels'?
:curl-lip:

Aside from ancient artifacts and colossal structures we have a difficult time understanding the origins of, there is another thing which has led me to believe in the possibility of past Alien visitation to Earth; ourselves, Humans.

While we are still finding fossils and artifacts which provide clues about our distant past, no one seems able to explain how we became the very different animals we are during so short a time.

As one example, dinosaurs had a much longer time to evolve and develop into more intelligent beings than we have.
How is it then that in a very short period of time we seem to have changed from being very ape - like and stupid, to becoming far more intelligent and organized?

I think we may have been given a genetic 'boost' from something else - possibly Alien intervention?
:alien:
I'll admit this idea came to me when I was listening to Pat Condell speaking about how he thinks we Humans look exactly like a cross between a monkey :monkey: and a pig :pig: - but it seemed so likely to me that I began wondering how this could be possible if indeed it is so.

Furthermore I would like to point out that we share genetic similarities to both monkeys {outward appearance} and pigs {internal organs} so it isn't that far of a stretch if you ask me.

[Dudebro]

Aliens coming to earth in ancient times to flee their masters? If I'm not mistaken that's the creation story for scientology.

no one seems able to explain how we became the very different animals we are during so short a time.You sure about that or do you mean you personally can't explain it? From what I've heard evolution explains our development pretty well. We were the smart primates, that was our advantage. We keep getting smarter and started shaping our world to be safer for us, which makes it easier to specialize and change. Our primate cousins weren't as smart and they filled their niche so they didn't have any pressures/motivations to change. It happened over a long time so it's not hard to image really. Everything I just said is how I remember it so it's not 100% accurate to the established science.

As one example, dinosaurs had a much longer time to evolve and develop into more intelligent beings than we have.This is an interesting mystery but I think the accepted theory is that the dinosaurs didn't need to develop our level of intelligence to flourish, they did just fine as they were. That's not to say they were stupid though. For all we know they might've been surprisingly smart like a dolphin or an elephant. I think the reason we assume they were dumb is the size of their brain cavity compared to their body size. Most would've had tiny brains so it's not hard to imagine they weren't creating sonnets or pondering their existence. I do remember hearing about some that had large brains though, maybe a velociraptor?

I think we may have been given a genetic 'boost' from something else - possibly Alien intervention?Star Trek TNG covered this beautifully. Click the link!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-j69iVReEU

[RU Joe]

DB:
Aliens coming to earth in ancient times to flee their masters? If I'm not mistaken that's the creation story for scientology.Precisely, only different.
:q

WARNING:

Not safe for Scientologists, do not open the following spoilers!

I'm serious, you'll lose all your 'gains' if you open the following spoiler.
Now go pray or something, and forget you ever saw this post!


Last chance.
Beyond this final spoiler lies the truth of your 'religion', as said by several former members of the church.
I warned you.

'It was L. Ron's belief that Humanity is infected by spirits of dead space aliens, banished to Earth by an Intergalactic Warlord, Xenu.'
:sidefrown:
These aliens were brought to Earth, placed around 10 or more volcanoes, then H - boms were detonated inside the volcanoes ..
Later, when we came along, the spirits of those aliens infected us :ghost: and of course the only thing in the world that can remove them is the Church of Scientology.
:talktohand:

This is what the church calls 'The Bridge to Freedom'.

http://www.retrouprising.com/img/2014_03/3543.jpg

If you're TLTW then start from 39:00.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIy5hfgYxrA
Here's the original 1987 BBC Panorama show they refer to:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTp6pmUGSMg

^
That almost needs a thread of its own, in my opinion.
So juicy.

DB:
You sure about that or do you mean you personally can't explain it? From what I've heard evolution explains our development pretty well. We were the smart primates, that was our advantage. We keep getting smarter and started shaping our world to be safer for us, which makes it easier to specialize and change. Our primate cousins weren't as smart and they filled their niche so they didn't have any pressures/motivations to change. It happened over a long time so it's not hard to image really. Everything I just said is how I remember it so it's not 100% accurate to the established science.I'm not denying our process of evolution, just wondering why the lizards didn't get smarter but we did.
From a practical standpoint I understand we're a better choice since we're way tougher and can do things they can't.
Of course there were other factors such as being omnivorous and therefore not dependent entirely on the survival of food animals, etc. but the point is the length of time they had to pull it off but didn't.

'Established' science seems to change its mind often, proving that we're still learning.

This is an interesting mystery but I think the accepted theory is that the dinosaurs didn't need to develop our level of intelligence to flourish, they did just fine as they were. That's not to say they were stupid though. For all we know they might've been surprisingly smart like a dolphin or an elephant. I think the reason we assume they were dumb is the size of their brain cavity compared to their body size. Most would've had tiny brains so it's not hard to imagine they weren't creating sonnets or pondering their existence. I do remember hearing about some that had large brains though, maybe a velociraptor? I get it that most were titanic brutes whose might went unchallenged, which in turn allowed them to exist practically without conflict and therefore no need to develop problem - solving skills.

I agree they probably weren't extremely smart but you brought to mind a story of a giant squid who was discovered to have made an intricate pattern on the sea floor using whatever it could find - which looked a lot like a Persian rug design, as I remember reading.
So the idea of an more intelligent breed like the Velociraptor {like Jurassic Park suggested} is completely plausible.

Overall I think people generally consider dinosaurs very stupid because they're extinct.
:skeleton:
Like the Dodo bird, they didn't have the right level of intelligence to avoid whatever it was that killed them all.
Not like us Humans.
:sarcastic:

[Mikman]

I believe in the religious origin of humanity's intellectual distinction, although I don't discount that evolution is the physical origin.

Whether or not we count the spiritual side of things in this, though, I don't really believe that aliens created us, at least not wholly, because then where and how would they originate? Does this lead to infinite temporally reversed creations by different aliens? Why would they do this? I don't oppose that aliens intervened in our past, but I don't believe that they made us.

[Dudebro]

I'm not denying our process of evolution, just wondering why the lizards didn't get smarter but we did.
From a practical standpoint I understand we're a better choice since we're way tougher and can do things they can't.
Of course there were other factors such as being omnivorous and therefore not dependent entirely on the survival of food animals, etc. but the point is the length of time they had to pull it off but didn't.
I looked into it a bit more and it seems to be accepted that they didn't evolve higher brain functions because lizards don't have a cortex in their brain which is what makes us what we are, empathetic and social. So I guess lizards are cold blooded in more ways than one. ;)

'Established' science seems to change its mind often, proving that we're still learning.
This is how the scientific method works. Always learning and always adjusting what we know based on new evidence. That's what makes science so reliable.

you brought to mind a story of a giant squid who was discovered to have made an intricate pattern on the sea floor using whatever it could find
Got a link that sounds fascinating. I've seen video of dolphins "standing" on the sea floor mimicking the humans who were trying to interact with them using recorded dolphin sounds. It gave me goosebumps.
Also squid/octopus/cuttlefish are in the group that is very intelligent. There's speculation that if primates didn't evolve like we did they might've become the dominant species through evolution, if they had become amphibious instead of living in the ocean. It'd be like Zoidbergs home planet!

[Mikman]

Many animals are highly intelligent, but I really question whether non-humanoids could evolve into sentient creatures, because even the most advanced kinds lack what capabilities even a primitive pre-sentient would begin with. Manual dexterity is also very important and few non-primates have that.

[RU Joe]

I understand that our brains and thumbs elevated us to the top of the food chain.
But here's a different take on evolution in general:

Now I'm going to get strange for a sec :eek:, but bear with me because we are going somewhere with this.

I love a really, really bad movie called 'The Revenge of Dr. X';

http://www.retrouprising.com/img/2014_03/3550.jpg

a story about a N.A.S.A. Rocket Scientist who gets stressed out after 5 years without a day off.

http://www.retrouprising.com/img/2014_03/3551.jpg

His assistant then offers him a relaxing vacation on his home island of Japan.
On the way there the good doctor gets in the spirit by indulging in his favorite hobby, Botany, by digging up a Venus Flytrap which he brings with him in a box to Japan.

Once in Japan he meets his assistant's cousin, and to her he provides a demonstration of the Venus Flytrap's true abilities.

From a small container he produces a bug which he placed inside one of the Flytrap's claws, and instantly the plant began clamping down on it to digest.
Then he produced a second container with an ant inside, and he placed the ant in yet another claw of the plant .. and nothing happened.

The doctor then explains:

'An interesting plant, our little cannibal .. that plant can reason.
The ant was too small to be of any food value; it wasn't worth the plant's time or digestion to bother with it.
It simply allows the thing it rejects to escape .. this plant can think, and reason ..'

...

And after seeing this movie for the first time, I was almost shocked to think anyone {besides me} would give such things any consideration.
:o
I learned about Venus Flytraps as a kid, but aside from them being interesting and unusual I often wondered how a plant could have become so aware of its surroundings.

It seemed to me that this plant 'saw' insects around it all the time and decided they looked rather tasty.
It then began to grow its claws to catch and eat them - not in one generation to be sure, because it seems evolution takes a lot of time in most cases.

I'm not saying the plant is highly intelligent but clearly some 'thinking' was involved in this.
Before I lose you guys completely I'm going to pause here and ask if you think there's anything to the theory of the Venus Flytrap?

[Dudebro]

I saw a nature program the other day that said it closes its mouth once something touches two of it's "hairs" on the inside lip. I can see an ant not trying that reflex unless it got unlucky.

[RU Joe]

I saw a nature program the other day that said it closes its mouth once something touches two of it's "hairs" on the inside lip. I can see an ant not trying that reflex unless it got unlucky.
I don't know but the ant in the movie crawled all over the inside of one of the Venus Flytrap's claws {mouths} and unless it was indeed lucky .. I'd say the movie is correct.

Nonetheless you're missing the whole point of the exercise which was to question the plant's apparent awareness which in turn led to its gaining its present form.
Another way of putting it is: did the Venus Flytrap gain its special ability to catch bugs through awareness of its surroundings?

If so, how is it aware? - can it see, hear, feel?

[Dudebro]

What movie did you see that in? Mine wasn't a movie it was a documentary, that's what I meant by nature program. I trust the one I saw to be right because it's based on people studying how the plant works.

I don't think it has any special awareness. It's a trap, like the vase plant. It relies on its sense of touch(the hairs) and maybe it can sense weight or movement like a spider but I doubt it.

What's really cool about the trap is it puts out a sugary compound to attract prey. That's a very specialized plant.

Can any plants hear or see? You need special organs for that and they should be easy to detect. You also need some kind of brain or at least a nervous system. As far as we know.

[RU Joe]

DB:
What movie did you see that in? You're kidding, right?
I began this current discussion of the Venus Flytrap's apparent awareness of its immediate surroundings by mentioning a certain movie I saw which chiefly deals with that very subject.

http://www.retrouprising.com/img/2014_04/3556.jpg

Mine wasn't a movie it was a documentary, that's what I meant by nature program. I trust the one I saw to be right because it's based on people studying how the plant works. ::)

http://www.retrouprising.com/img/2014_04/3557.png

[Dudebro]

So wait, you're basing your knowledge of it on The Revenge of Doctor X? You realize that's a work of fiction right? Maybe they used a fake/dead plant when the ant was on it?

You have a problem with nature documentaries based on observable science?

[RU Joe]

So wait, you're basing your knowledge of it on The Revenge of Doctor X? You realize that's a work of fiction right? Maybe they used a fake/dead plant when the ant was on it?

You have a problem with nature documentaries based on observable science?
Of course I realize it's a work of fiction.
It still doesn't change what a Venus Flytrap is; I was trying to illustrate the point the movie was apparently trying to make.

No, I don't have a problem with nature documentaries based on observable science.
Yes I know that science can explain exactly how the plant works but that's not the point here.

'Observable science' once threw a man into prison for saying the Earth was not the center of the Universe, proving that 'it' doesn't know everything, while at the same time posing as an ultimate authority.

I'm talking about the possibility that a plant may have become aware of its surroundings and adapted itself based on its own observations.
Pretty difficult to prove scientifically but interesting to wonder about nevertheless.

What you said about needing special organs to hear or see is not exactly true; look at flies who can taste through their feet; they don't have tongues on their feets ...:q but despite that they still taste.
So why can't a plant be aware of its surroundings without eyes or ears?

[Dudebro]

'Observable science' once threw a man into prison for saying the Earth was not the center of the UniverseThat's unfair and I don't think it's accurate. The church held onto that belief long past it being debunked. Scientists figured it out once they were able to look up with telescopes. Sailors probably also figured it out because they navigated by the stars and figured out that the earth is round. So if anything the science involved in an earth centric solar system was probably coerced by the church. If someone were to observe it without that yoke on they'd clearly see the truth.

I'm talking about the possibility that a plant may have become aware of its surroundings and adapted itself based on its own observations.Nothing seems to indicate that plants are capable of that, as far as I know. The trap uses its sense of touch, which is already amazing, it doesn't really need a more complicated answer unless evidence comes up that contradicts it.

So why can't a plant be aware of its surroundings without eyes or ears?I don't think I ever claimed it's impossible. My point is plants aren't known to have those abilities as far as our current understanding goes. I'm sure people have been testing plant senses for a long time though and so far there's no proof of it being legit.

Plants being aware is a scary thought though.

[Ballas]

Plants being aware is a scary thought though.

:nailbiting:

[RU Joe]

^
Huh, I thought I posted a reply to DB in between there.
Strange.

Interesting you should post the picture of the Little Shop of Horrors, Ballas; a friend was just talking about that part where it was going to bite the lady's butt while Seymour wasn't looking.

http://www.retrouprising.com/img/2014_04/3571.jpg