An Open Letter to Retrouprising

[Seahawk]

Hello staff of Retrouprising.

I come before you today to give you my honest opinions of the state of things here, because today I finally became irritated enough by how things work around here that I sincerely, honestly am wondering now whether it is worth the trouble to continue playing here.

This is not a thread of troll grievances.
This is just my sincere personal assessment of how things currently stand, and how they might be improved. I hate to get a doom and gloom mentality about such a great site, but I cannot avoid writing this any longer.

Communication & Openness
This is my biggest issue with this site. Keeping a solid line of communication within an organization is important, as is feedback to users.

The staff are great people, and despite their mod status are a well integrated within the community of non-mod users.
However at the same time they can be very unresponsive at times, to the point where it feels like communicating with a black hole.

Here is one such case.
On 10/07/2010, I submitted a score for Puzzle Bobble 3 to the game masters submission thread. Original Post (http://retrouprising.com/contests/open-contests/game-masters-submissions/t9794/p13/#post150163).
Despite the "ALL" in the screenshot and despite posting it in the thread created for it, the score was graded as a normal score without the mastery, with no feedback given.

I waited a while to see if someone would go back in the thread and check, but to no avail.

I then did it again on a different mode, with the screenshot still with the "ALL". Original Post (http://retrouprising.com/contests/open-contests/game-masters-submissions/t9794/p13/#post152128)

Again, it was graded as a normal score, despite it being in the specific thread for it. It stayed that way until I bugged Tenser later in chat about it.

I am not mad about that happening so long ago, but it still goes on today.

Just yesterday I played the Vs. Cpu mode on the SNES version of Tetris 2. Again, I posted it in the thread. Post (http://retrouprising.com/contests/open-contests/game-masters-submissions/t9794/p48/#post216411)
This morning I checked and found that my score was DELETED (see here (http://retrouprising.com/game-menu/game/4238/scores/)). And there was no post on the thread, or PM explaining why.

Last night I posted 3 scores for the F-Zero games on this month's game club. Since there is now some confusion as to what a mastery is for the game (apparently now it's NOT master difficulty), and because saves were not enabled when I played (which I had pointed out before several weeks ago (http://retrouprising.com/private-forums/donors-mods/february-2012-a/t12520/#post212460), and again last week (http://retrouprising.com/private-forums/donors-mods/february-2012-a/t12520/p3/#post214971)), and the fact that faced with that I simply played through each game twice to get the ending screen, I am now honestly afraid my scores will be deleted either again with no notification, or because someone will dredge up a rule that will invalidate my score, even though the issues I had brought up well in advance were never acknowledged.

Which leads me to.....

Communicating Nebulous Rules
I'll be frank. The rules here suck. I am sure there is a better way of explaining them without several giant numbered lists (http://retrouprising.com/faq.php#faq_scores).

Worse still, they are changed every few months, which either invalidates old scores, or changes the conditions on which scores will be accepted. This also goes hand in hand with the lack of notifications described above.

Here you have two conflicting rules.
Do NOT press "Start" to pause or stand around doing nothing for long periods of time, this includes letting the demo play. That inflates your game play movie. If you need to pause press "P" which also pauses the movie.
Do NOT pause ("P") to boost your score. You may occasionally pause in typical games but do NOT pause in a game that has timed puzzles (Example Where's Waldo) or trivia questions (Example Jeopardy) or is an endurance test (Example Asteroids).A few months ago I was dead set on beating Dr. Mario on the NES. When I finally managed and submitted it, I was greeted with this in a PM from a mod.

Mod: You have a pause registered on your submission, did you resize the screen or something? It could possibly be declined due to that, I posted about it for opinions.To which I responded:
Me: I paused because of a phone call. The alternative was an extended in-game pause which is against the rules as well.

Isn't the screen supposed to go all black when you pause on the pause-block games? It didn't.

And one pause in over an hours worth of play? Come on.Which came back with:
Mod: I'll bring it up, but I think we are trying to blanket the rules now without exceptions.So tell me, what was I supposed to do? Using the in game pause is against the rules, and using the P pause is against the rules for this game.
It would be nice to know what games fall under the "Cannot P Pause" rule, can't there be some kind of indicator on the game page?

Aside from conflicting rules, it's just confusing for everybody what is and what isn't a mastery. It's so bad that not even the mods seem to know what it is.
See here from the F-Zero game club, which the video example (http://retrouprising.com/contests/open-contests/game-club-challenges/f-zero-feb-12-a/t13037/) uses the ending from Master difficulty, which can ONLY be achieved on master difficulty.
And yet later.......
Game Mod A: Do we need to do master level? What are the requirements to consider it mastered?

Game Mod B: If it were up to me, the mastering requirements would be to clear any league on Master difficulty. This would require you to clear that league on Expert in order to unlock Master.

Game Mod C: Beat it on default of higher.

Game Mod D: So to be clear we do have to beat Master to get an ending right?

Game Mod B: No. Standard is sufficient.

In another thread:
Game Mod D: I'm confused, I thought this is what we wanted but Game Mod B is saying just standard is fine?

Game Mod C: The contest rules are the same as the house rules. We don't require players to beat any game on it's most difficult setting anymore. Therefore, default difficulty will suffice.

Game Mod E: For us who've never played F-Zero, we just gotta beat one cup?
A really, really, disorganized and confusing mess here, made worse by the fact that this stuff should have been decided on well before it went public.

Isn't there an easier way? Can there not be a "Master Condition" box in each game page with a clear description that is set in stone, that doesn't have to be compared and interpreted against this?
. How to submit a game master.


You must follow all high score rules above.
Check if there are any special requirements needed for the individual game before making the attempt. You may ask about specific games or requirements here (http://retrouprising.com/contests/open-contests/game-masters/t9786%22).
You must complete the entire game from start to finish on default or harder settings.
If a game loops, you only need to complete the first loop. That means short loop games such as Donkey Kong will be very quick and easy to beat.
If a game has no ending then flipping the score or level counter or reaching a kill screen will count as mastering the game.
If the original game cartridge featured battery saves you can request (http://retrouprising.com/contests/open-contests/game-masters/t9786%22) "SRAM to be enabled" if it is not already. Typical examples of games that used battery saves are The Legend of Zelda and Final Fantasy.
If a game provides continues, you may use up to 5. If you use continues your submission will not count as a score, only as mastering.You may NOT increase the number of continues offered via an options screen or code.
Submit a game master is done the same way as submitting a score. Press F12 when you are on a screen that shows you beat the game.
After you submit your mastering you are encouraged to post here (http://retrouprising.com/contests/open-contests/game-masters-submissions/t9794/). If you do not then a game mods might mistakingly assume your submission is just a score and not give you credit for mastering it.
If the game has one screen that both shows your score and that you have beat the game then you may submit on that screen and get credit for both at the same time.

The shmups.system11 forum has no automatic scoreboards at all, scores are added and edited manually by individual users.
Overview (http://shmups.system11.org/viewforum.php?f=2&sid=310cf644a6dc6168a3342d3826694a28)............ Example scoreboard (http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?t=21103)
And that system goes a lot smoother despite the automatic management here.

Going Forward and TL;DR
I'll repeat myself. This is not meant to be a whiny thread.
This is a really great and unique site.
But I do believe that these are big problems that honestly need to be addressed, and that if they are not, will only cause more headaches down the road.

1. The site needs better defined rules. In some cases trying to apply global rules TO ALL GAMES simply isn't going to work. This is why there are nice text boxes on each game page to write specifics. Both special rules and conditions for mastery need to be written on each page.

2. Better and more open communication. When you delete a score, or it is disqualified, don't leave us in the dark. Tell us why.


I sincerely hope that considerations in this letter will be taken to heart by the staff, and adjustments are made.

Thank you for reading, and thank you for the site, and all your hard work.

~Seahawk

[joz]

Thank you for your input Seahawk. I apologize for our lack of communication and we will be having a big discussion to talk about the way things are dealt with here. Especially the rules and requirements for submitting scores and mastery.

[CrispyChicken]

@Seahawk- Personally, I thank you for this. This is only constructive criticism. You aren't being mean in any way. I understand you are only posting this because you care about the site and want it to be better.

I am now honestly afraid my scores will be deleted either again with no notification, or because someone will dredge up a rule that will invalidate my score
Your mastery for the original F-Zero has already been approved. Retro Uprising - Arcade - F Zero - Highscores (http://retrouprising.com/game-menu/game/1275/scores/)

It would be nice to know what games fall under the "Cannot P Pause" rule, can't there be some kind of indicator on the game page?

As for the Dr. Mario thing:
but do NOT pause in a game that has timed puzzles (Example Where's Waldo) or trivia questions (Example Jeopardy) or is an endurance test (Example Asteroids). ... ..
Basically, if it's a puzzle/trivia game. then you can't pause. We are in the process of disabling games with pauses, but I think there was an error in the system (Because I did about 4 pages of them and then realized it wasn't working. I'm sure Kong could enlighten us)

I know you were mad about the Dr. Mario thing, and frankly I didn't like it, but we are trying to do the blanket rules where there's no exceptions. This wouldn't have been a problem because like we said, we are disabling pause for games like that.

A really, really, disorganized and confusing mess here, made worse by the fact that this stuff should have been decided on well before it went public.
I do agree with this. We were all talking about it, but for some reason, we never came to the definite conclusion. However, Rule 3 should clearly say you don't have to beat it on master.
You must complete the entire game from start to finish on default or harder settings.
I really don't know why I didn't bring this up in the thread.

Isn't there an easier way? Can there not be a "Master Condition" box in each game page with a clear description that is set in stone, that doesn't have to be compared and interpreted against this?

It would take forever to this for every game, but I'd be up for helping with this. I think it would make things easier and less confusing.

And finally, I really don't know what's up with the Tetris 2 thing. Two mods were talking about if it qualifies or not, but no conclusion was made at the moment. I really don't know why it was deleted.

[ZedIsDead]

Your mastery for the original F-Zero has already been approved. Retro Uprising - Arcade - F Zero - Highscores (http://retrouprising.com/game-menu/game/1275/scores/)

Seahawk, having been the mod to sit through it, I must say it was a great playthrough. Kudos to you. Another mod is working on the others.


I do agree with this. We were all talking about it, but for some reason, we never came to the definite conclusion. However, Rule 3 should clearly say you don't have to beat it on master.
You must complete the entire game from start to finish on default or harder settings.
I really don't know why I didn't bring this up in the thread.


I take responsibility for this one, I should have remembered the rules before suggesting people beat it on Master.(Although I still think it should be the requirement for mastering F-Zero. Getting third place on each of the Knight League tracks on Standard difficulty is no accomplishment.)

Honestly, I think the term "mastery" is somewhat confusing to people.

[Dudebro]

@SH- Do you have a suggestion for how the rules can be set up better? I agree it's not ideal.

[Slime Slayer]

People are probably sick of hearing me say this, but I am still confident that it is best:

Rolling credits = Mastery

[thetedster]

Seahawk I'd like you to stay since you are inequivically one of the better players on the site.

You have my respect and probably the respect of others who have seen your scores. I understand your frustration, and hopefully it doesn't drive you away.

Ted

[Seahawk]

I'm not planning to leave. But I can't keep playing when I'm not totally sure that my score will be considered good because the rules are so conflicting and cloudy.

Thank you for taking the time to read my small essay.

[Dudebro]

@SH- Do you have a suggestion for how the rules can be set up better? I agree it's not ideal.
Anyone feel free to answer this. If we're gonna improve things we need input.

[thetedster]

Anyone feel free to answer this. If we're gonna improve things we need input.

I'll probably have a response to this tonight, when I have more sleep...haha

[Barra]

People are probably sick of hearing me say this, but I am still confident that it is best:

Rolling credits = Mastery

While this is valid for many games, there is also a lot that do not have ending credits.

[DrunkN]

Rolling credits = Mastery

I think you should elaborate. Which rules should this idea erase?

[Kong]

@the communication from mods to users or lack thereof.

You have to keep in mind, we are all unpaid volunteers doing this as a hobby in our free time. We can improve and appreciate the feedback but we are never going to be able to provide the same level of support as a professional company can.

Yesterday I met someone that runs another video game website that is less popular than ours and has less features. He hosts 4 game tournaments a year and because they specialize in modern PC games he can attract large sponsors such as the publishers of Call of Duty or video cards like NVIDA and make $50K per tournament. Because we specialize in retro games we will never be able to raise that kind of money. And therefor will always be ran by amateur volunteers donating their free time.

@The miss of the Puzzle Bobble 3 master.
Sorry, that slipped through the current system.

Once the new emulators are finished there will be a solution to this.

Currently you press F12 and your current screenshot and a movie of your game play is submitted and the game is ended. The final frame of your game is used to judge both scores and masters. To the mod both scores and master submissions look the identical.

In the next version of the emulators you will have an option of pressing one key to submit your score and one key to submit a game ending. The game will allow you to continue after submitting your score so you can submit another frame for the game ending. This will enable scores and masters to be labeled differently when the mods view them.

In the mean time, the mods should be more vigilant about checking the master submission thread before submitting scores.

Also there is a note section the mods can see when approving scores that lists special instructions for each game. Puzzle Bobble did not have any instructions listed. I just added "If highscore board says "all" then they beat the game." So this should not happen in this game again.

@Tetris 2.
Somebody had posted in the mod section saying they accidentally deleted your score. Since I am the only one that can undelete scores, it had to wait until I got on to fix it. It is back now.

This type of error has not happened very often as far as I am aware. Again, I apologize that it happened to you.


@The 2 pause rules.
These rules do not conflict.
Never press "Start" to pause.
Do not press "P" to pause in puzzle and trivia games where pausing would give you an unfair advantage.

Isn't the screen supposed to go all black when you pause on the pause-block games? It didn'tIt does in puzzle/trivia games beta mode. The option is not available yet in the default mode. Eventually Beta mode will be finished and fully add this feature to the site.

It would be nice to know what games fall under the "Cannot P Pause" rule, can't there be some kind of indicator on the game page?If you can receive an unfair advantage from pausing, typically puzzle and trivia games, then you can not pause and submit your score. When the next emulators are complete you will not need to think much about this because the "P" pause will be disabled when it is not allowed.


@Dr. Mario.
Your Dr. Mario score with one pause was already approved. Because it was a puzzle game and you pressed pause we did not automatically approve it but instead discussed if it should be allowed. It was decided that because you only paused once in 70 minutes of game play that it did not give you an unfair advantage.

If someone beat your Dr. Mario score, I am sure you would be upset if their score was automatically approved despite using pause.

So tell me, what was I supposed to do? Using the in game pause is against the rules, and using the P pause is against the rules for this game.Don't use pause in games where doing so could give you an unfair advantage, such as in a puzzle or trivia game. If you are interrupted you will have to start over or just not submit a score or let the timer in the game run down while you do what it is you need to do.


@F-Zero Game Club.
That page is a cluster bomb. But the rule itself is very simple and should not be confusing or susceptible to lots of personal interpretation.

Start on level 1. Beat the game with default or higher difficulty. If a game loops you only need to play the first loop.

I think part of the confusion was caused by Jozman, who volunteered to make the post, not being familiar enough with the game to recognize that the example youtube video he posted used non-default settings. I don't think Joz was confused about our rules.

The resulting posts were a mess of confusion though. The rule itself is simple and easy to understand though - beat the game on default or higher settings. This is the rule for every game and should be very easy to understand.


@Changing rules.
Our rules are pretty stable now. Typcially when they changed it was because a new technical feature was added such as being able to view movies and monitor point leeching and other cheats or being able to support battery saves or a large new idea such as game masters that needs to have bugs ironed out as it is tested.

@shmups.system11
Their rules are more simple than ours because they are not capable of detecting rule breaking. They are just submitting screenshots to a forum. They can not even tell if the image came from photoshop or mame. We are not trying to do the same thing they are doing. I have no interest in pursuing that model.

@Improved rules.
I am open to suggestions.
I want the rules to be simple, concise and easy to understand while at the same time maintaining fair and exciting competition that is free of cheating and numerous exceptions.

While everything can of course be improved, I personally think the rules are pretty close to fully meeting those goals.

2. Better and more open communication. When you delete a score, or it is disqualified, don't leave us in the dark. Tell us why.I was not aware that this was a frequent problem. I was under the impression that when an action was taken that the mod typically PMs the user. There are numerous posts in the mod section of mods quoting what they sent to a user after performing an action.