So... Why is Xbox original compatibility so bad?

[CatalystiCam]

Just curious. I realized I never really found an answer to this and I can't really find one searching around...

Anyone know exactly why only 200 some xbox original games are playable on xbox 360? Kind of annoying when only like 4 of my xbox original game like fuzion frenzy, halo, halo 2 and tony hawks 3 works on my xbox while other games I really want to play like Timesplitters 3, SSX Tricky, Flatout 2, Oddworld: Stranger's Wrath etc. won't work.

I still have my original Xbox but it has disc read problems often and the games that do work often have this problem of pressing the 'L' button on it's own all the time making some games impossible to play. (SSX Tricky will always do a stupid trick on it's own, Flatout 2 will constantly brake).

So yeah, any specific reason why? I think I remember hearing it's basically just an emulator with low compatibility but I don't recall even if I did ever find out.

[Dudebro]

I don't play any old xbox games and I never really bothered to read up on it, sorry. You could try posting this on xbox.com for better results. I bet lots of them would love to weigh in on this kind of thing.

[Seahawk]

I think I remember hearing it's basically just an emulator with low compatibility but I don't recall even if I did ever find out.

It's probably this. The machines have totally different hardware architectures and backwards compatibility was probably never a priority for Microsoft.

[Dudebro]

I just read a little about it and it seems like they switched from Intel to IBM with the 360 CPU and each game has to be emulated individually. They originally said they'd get to most of the library but as of 2008 they said they're done with it, online support for those games ended recently too.

List of Xbox games compatible with Xbox 360 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[CatalystiCam]

so it says you got to get specific downloads. Does this mean I could just download some file for say Oddworld: Strangers wrath to my hard drive and it would work? Whenever I put any xbox game in my 360, it still says "Play *insert game title*" which I find weird.

[Dudebro]

That game isn't on the list, why would you ask if it's gonna work?

[CatalystiCam]

That game isn't on the list, why would you ask if it's gonna work?

Never mind, thought I saw something that said you could get any game to work.

[Dudebro]

Nope sorry. The list is pretty inconsistent and limited but at least it's something.

[CatalystiCam]

Yeah, I suppose. Do you know if the original xboxes generally break down easily or if we just got unlucky? Might have to get another one eventually.

[Kugyince]

http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/2/22060/949401-poster18270382_super.jpg

[Slime Slayer]

Apparently the failure rate of 360's is up to 54%, not hard to sell 50 million units when everyone needs to buy 5 of them.

---------- Post added at 09:18 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:13 AM ----------

Ouch:
PlayStation 3 - 10.6 percent
Wii - 6.8 percent
Xbox 360 - 54.2 percent

[jim5cents]

Good job SC, way to find a way to troll in the 360 again
The compatability was a hardware issue and they had to rewrite software in order to make the xbox games compatable with the 360. I think when the 360 launched an update that made probably 35 or 40 games playable. They focused on the most popular titles, but also included games where the software changes were very similar. Hence why you got games like Halo and GTA and then games that 4 people played.

There wasn't enough demand for backwards compatability as time went on, so they basically abandoned the project. In April of 2010, MS ended all support for original xbox games on XBL.

---------- Post added at 01:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:40 PM ----------

I still remain confused about where the numbers for the failure rates come from. I've never red ringed. The only problem I've ever had was the disk drive broke and that was because I dropped it.

I have only know one person that has had a red ring and I know a ton of college kids that have 360's.

I think the RR numbers are part of JG's NWO bankers plot.

[CatalystiCam]

I still remain confused about where the numbers for the failure rates come from. I've never red ringed. The only problem I've ever had was the disk drive broke and that was because I dropped it.

I think I may be safe at this point. Bought my xbox 2 or 3 years ago now I think, and when I opened the box, it was a brand new 360, but it was from 2007. Anyways, it still runs fine.

I've actually heard of at least 7 or 8 people having their ps3's break so far. Yet I don't know anyone personally that had their 360 break on them.

It's ridiculous to have a failure rate that high I will admit but I'm not seeing it personally.

[Kong]

Xbox 360 - 54.2 percent
xbox 360 failure rate - Google Search (http://www.google.com/search?q=xbox+360+failure+rate)

The first 5 links put the failure rate at
54%
30%
5%
42%
23%

Not that any of that is good, just pointing out there is not a solid real statistic.

[Slime Slayer]

@jim, thanks bro, I do what I can.
I just read it on gamespot, it was a poll of 5000 gamers. So it's safe to say that the people taking part in the poll played their systems a lot, that could account for the high numbers.

[Kugyince]

That could also account for a lot of fanboys of other consoles trying to raise the percentage of 360 failures.

[Dudebro]

The other factor being left out of the failure rate numbers is the version of the consoles. From my understanding the first series was the one with the horrible failure rate and every model since has improved by a lot. It still happens, but not like it was at first.

Btw at least the 360 has some backwards compatibility. PS3 got rid of it all together, dropped the price of the console and pretended it was a deal. All they did was remove content, reduce the price as little as possible and drop the price on the PS2 to make up for it. I think that's far worse because PS2 had a huge library and a huge following, and Sony screwed those fans to bring the price down to a reasonable level.

Wii doesn't count because it's not that different from GC, of course those game will play fine.

[Seahawk]

Btw at least the 360 has some backwards compatibility. PS3 got rid of it all together, dropped the price of the console and pretended it was a deal. All they did was remove content, reduce the price as little as possible and drop the price on the PS2 to make up for it. I think that's far worse because PS2 had a huge library and a huge following, and Sony screwed those fans to bring the price down to a reasonable level..

Lol what? PS3 still plays PS1 games. And it's not so much as "remove content, reduce the price" so much as "redesign the entire system board, making it smaller, cooler, quieter, and use less energy".

And unlike the Gamecube and Xbox, Playstation 2 consoles are still available for purchase for less than $100. So getting the original console that is compatible with all games and is 100% glitch free shouldn't be a problem.

[Dudebro]

Honestly that's news to me. I heard they discontinued backwards compatibility and I remember people rushing out to by a certain model that still played them.

I still think it's "remove content, reduce price" but I'll openly admit I still don't trust Sony after how obnoxious the starting price was and how arrogantly they dismissed a good portion of their fans with it.

Imo the PS2 is still for sale because lots of people still won't buy a PS3. Sony knows PS2s will sell well still so they continue to support it. If they had a way to force people to buy PS3s they would. But yeah, I'm bias against them.

[Seahawk]

Honestly that's news to me. I heard they discontinued backwards compatibility and I remember people rushing out to by a certain model that still played them.

Here's a summary I wrote a long time ago.

ALL PS3s support PS1 games.
ALL FAT PS3s support PS2 games.

EARLY FAT PS3s had PS2 emulation in hardware.
LATER FAT PS3s had PS2 emulation in software, via an official firmware update from Sony. You do not need unofficial firmware or custom emulators to play PS2 games.

Yeah, when the Slim model came out, the old one was put out of production, there was a rush to buy models that played PS2 games.

I still think it's "remove content, reduce price" but I'll openly admit I still don't trust Sony after how obnoxious the starting price was and how arrogantly they dismissed a good portion of their fans with it.

I believe a lot of that can be attributed to Ken Kutaragi who created an unbelievable hype storm about the PS3 before and after it's launch. Sony has forcibly 'retired' him by moving him somewhere else.

[CatalystiCam]

Imo the PS2 is still for sale because lots of people still won't buy a PS3.

Yup. That's the truth right here.

Sony knows PS2s will sell well still so they continue to support it.

Why I got one recently, console was cheap and games are cheap at gamestop anyways. Go to a wal-mart or anything and they don't sell anything older than 2 years old... Games anyways, Wal-mart sells ps2 accessories... but no games.. I don't get it.

Honestly though I'm done favouring any sort of company because they have all ticked me off at least once, so I could care less. Whatever console has games that I like, I'll buy. Also if it has my best interests at hand. Gamecube, xbox and ps2, PS1 & N64 games are all really cheap right now, so I buy them a lot.

I really like the 360 for the arcade library. They make some really neat games like the new pac man game for like 5 or 10 bucks. Honestly I have twice as many Live arcade games, as I do 360 games. Definitely a lot more work goes into Xbox live arcade then nintendo will ever put into the shop channel imo.

[Seahawk]

I really like the 360 for the arcade library. They make some really neat games like the new pac man game for like 5 or 10 bucks. Honestly I have twice as many Live arcade games, as I do 360 games. Definitely a lot more work goes into Xbox live arcade then nintendo will ever put into the shop channel imo.

In this statement: truth.
Probably because Nintendo shop products are limited to 40MB, which would be enough space for games if we were still in the N64 era.

[Dudebro]

Yeah, when the Slim model came out, the old one was put out of production, there was a rush to buy models that played PS2 games.
That's the confusion, it's PS2 that isn't supported. I don't know anyone who wants to play PS1 stuff really, PS2 was where it really shined. Don't get me wrong I loved it at the time but now PS1 games don't really stand the test of time like PS2 games do.

I believe a lot of that can be attributed to Ken Kutaragi who created an unbelievable hype storm about the PS3 before and after it's launch. Sony has forcibly 'retired' him by moving him somewhere else.
Whatever the cause I dunno but that original price point plus the cost of games and accessories was like a slap in the face for me. I was a big Sony fan up until that point. I could've afforded it but I wasn't gonna spend that much money on a console, still won't.

[jim5cents]

Wal-mart sells ps2 accessories... but no games.. I don't get it.


They only have so much shelf space and it is more profitable for them to stock it with current gen games that sell for 50-60 a pop than PS2 games with way less demand and at a cheaper price.

[Dudebro]

Plus it's Walmart, they don't care.

[Seahawk]

They could be just clearing out leftover inventory. It'd be silly to throw something away when someone is guaranteed to buy it sometime.

[jim5cents]

They could be just clearing out leftover inventory. It'd be silly to throw something away when someone is guaranteed to buy it sometime.

Atari video game burial - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Kugyince]

In this statement: truth.
Probably because Nintendo shop products are limited to 40MB, which would be enough space for games if we were still in the N64 era.

They raised it to 60MB. Not that it maters as Wii/DSiWare could have been done a lot better.

In their defense though, they say they are trying to improve it with the e-shop. Everything will be listed by it's dollar amount instead of point cost, ability to buy any amount instead of set amounts, better advertising + spot pass, and raising the cap to 500MB.

Atari video game burial - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atari_video_game_burial)

Yeah, article is based on e-myths and wrong. It was used to dump defective material.

[bearhawk72]

Originally Posted by Seahawk http://retrouprising.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://retrouprising.com/video-games/all-other-games/arcana-heart/t9973/post134256/#post134256)
ALL PS3s support PS1 games.
ALL FAT PS3s support PS2 games.

EARLY FAT PS3s had PS2 emulation in hardware.
LATER FAT PS3s had PS2 emulation in software, via an official firmware update from Sony. You do not need unofficial firmware or custom emulators to play PS2 games.
Not quite.

The 40GB Fat PS3 has no PS2 compatibility

[Seahawk]

They raised it to 60MB. Not that it maters as Wii/DSiWare could have been done a lot better.

In their defense though, they say they are trying to improve it with the e-shop. Everything will be listed by it's dollar amount instead of point cost, ability to buy any amount instead of set amounts, better advertising + spot pass, and raising the cap to 500MB.

That's really good news. I hope some quality control is implemented as well, the current lineup on the DSi looks more like the App Store than a game library.

However, I think that if a game requires 500MB then you'd be better off getting it manufactured into a ROM, because the 3DS has 1.5GB flash memory, and that would be a third of the unit's data storage for a single game. 500MB is larger than almost every DS game cartridge, I think only Ni no Kuni is larger at 512MB.

[Slime Slayer]

That's really good news. I hope some quality control is implemented as well, the current lineup on the DSi looks more like the App Store than a game library.

However, I think that if a game requires 500MB then you'd be better off getting it manufactured into a ROM, because the 3DS has 1.5GB flash memory, and that would be a third of the unit's data storage for a single game. 500MB is larger than almost every DS game cartridge, I think only Ni no Kuni is larger at 512MB.

Don't forget it supports up to a 32gb sd card, that's plenty of space.

[Seahawk]

Don't forget it supports up to a 32gb sd card, that's plenty of space.

Yeah, but it probably has to run the game from the internal memory just like the Wii and DSi, so you still have to find space for it to play it.

[jim5cents]

@Ten

I know...very tongue in cheek.

[Kugyince]

@SH: No, they patched that. The Wiii can run straight off the SD card now. Don't know about the DSi since I don't own one.

[Seahawk]

I know that the SD card menu was implemented about two years ago, but when you pick a game from it the Wii still has to copy it to the internal memory before it plays, hence that loading screen (as opposed to the instant startup for interal games). You still need enough memory for the game file or it will send you to memory management.

Unless it was updated again, and I didn't hear about it since I'm in college.

[CatalystiCam]

I filled up all my space on the wii with all those vc games I bought, so I boguht a 2 or 4 gig sd card ages ago. Really handy.

[Dudebro]

I bought like two VC games because the list was so poor last time I checked and I either own most or can play them easier without the Wii.

[Slime Slayer]

I bought like two VC games because the list was so poor last time I checked and I either own most or can play them easier without the Wii.
How would you fix it?

[CatalystiCam]

be nice if they could work on updating the games a bit and adding online play like microsoft did with doom, perfect dark, sonic, etc.

[Slime Slayer]

I find the list of games to be good, the online multiplayer is already present in at least one game, (Puyo Puyo) and there are bound to be more on the horizon. I'm not a big downloader of VC or Wii Ware though, I think I just dl'd The After Years and that's it.

[Dudebro]

How would you fix it?
I dunno release better games for less money? I haven't checked it in a while but when I did there was very few that I wanted to play and even fewer that I wanted to pay for.


there are bound to be more on the horizon.
Really? I thought I heard that they haven't been updating it much at all recently and it's kinda dead?

[CatalystiCam]

last I heard nintendo claims that they weren't doing any editing whatsoever to their virtual console games after fans were mad about simpler things like not being able to save ghosts on n64 (kind of ironic since you play wave race and they changed all the ads for n64 and gameboy to ads for the wii and ds). So I believe wiiware games have online but I doubt they will do anything to help out VC much. I recently did buy a points card for the first time in 2 years to get Mario Party 2 and Mario Tennis mainly so I can play with friends and my bros but there really isn't much appeal other than that.

[Slime Slayer]

I dunno release better games for less money? I haven't checked it in a while but when I did there was very few that I wanted to play and even fewer that I wanted to pay for.


Really? I thought I heard that they haven't been updating it much at all recently and it's kinda dead?

Regarding the selection and price, I guess they can't tailor make a list for specific types of gamers, and they are cheaper than Xbox arcade games.


Regarding the updates, I've been getting my weekly news letter and there have been 2-3 new titles each week. I don't know how many used to come out per week, but 2-3 is decent i.m.o..

[Dudebro]

Well they should be cheaper than Xbox Arcade games since they're just rereleases of old games. For most of us that would be buying a game we already own or used to own, not much incentive besides hardcore nostalgia. Xbox arcade has mostly new games and remastered old games.
Either way I was just commenting about how disappointed I was with the VC. Xbox Arcade is better by far but I still don't buy many of those games either. But I know it's wildly popular.

[Kugyince]

They've been adding some great games recently, Chrono Trigger and Mega Man X are coming soon as well.

My issue is that I can play all of those except the N64 games here. I have bought quite a few WiiWare games though.

I'll admit, they really dropped the ball on not allowing online multiplayer for VC games.

---------- Post added at 04:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:51 PM ----------

Also a River City Ransom sequel is coming to WiiWare. :D

[Dudebro]

If RCR was enabled with multiplayer I'd be happy with VC, but it's not. :(

[Kugyince]

RCR is WiiWare, not VC.

WiiWare can do online multiplayer.

[Dudebro]

So wait RCR is online for Wii? For some reason I thought it wasn't.

[Kugyince]

River City Ransom Sequel Set for WiiWare - Wii News at IGN (http://wii.ign.com/articles/115/1157652p1.html)

[Dudebro]

The sequel might be multiplayer but is the first game? I see it listed as VC when I look it up.

[Kugyince]

Ah, sorry, thought we were talking about the same version.

No idea about the VC version but I doubt it.

P.S. First post on my new cell phone! W00t!!

[CatalystiCam]

My issue is that I can play all of those except the N64 games here.

Same incentive I have mainly. I own like 12 of the 20(?) N64 games they have on VC... Enough to fill an entire main menu screen.

mostly it's for offline multiplayer still.

Couldn't Nintendo just upgrade their Virtual console to make it better, or is that not a possibility at this point?

[Seahawk]

Couldn't Nintendo just upgrade their Virtual console to make it better, or is that not a possibility at this point?

Probably not. When you download a VC game, you are actually downloading a game ROM and an emulator for the system it runs on. So it's up to the game publishers to decide how accurate they want their game to be. And Nintendo's policy disallows changing the game too much.

Nintendo isn't one to change their rules, so don't hope too much.

[Kugyince]

Next console, 2012... maybe.

[Demon-Mask]

Just a question, how well does the Virtual Console work? Is the emulation generally high quality, or does it lag needlessly? Are the games totally accurate to the originals, or is there a difference here and there, and are these differences major?

[Kugyince]

The emulation is spot on from the few that I own.

[Slime Slayer]

Next console, 2012... maybe.
Big maybe.

[Demon-Mask]

That's good, what titles do you own?

[Kugyince]

Not on the console, a big maybe on them getting VC online multiplayer.

---------- Post added at 07:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:11 PM ----------

That's good, what titles do you own?

Pokemon Snap, Castlevania III, SMB2, StarTropics 1 & 2, Secret of Mana.

[Dudebro]

I only played a few VC games but they seemed to be fine to me.

[Demon-Mask]

Those are some good games Tenser, not many NES games are as fun as Castlevania III, and Pokemon Snap is one of my favorites in the series.

[Kugyince]

When I bought those, they weren't able to be emulated on the site, except for SMB2 which I bought for a party.

[Demon-Mask]

Must have been quite some time ago, seeing as Castlevania III is an NES game, or did it have specific issues?

[Kugyince]

Unsupported mapper.

[Demon-Mask]

Ah, that makes some sense.

[Slime Slayer]

Not on the console, a big maybe on them getting VC online multiplayer.
It already exists, Puyo Puyo coin-op, is the only one so far I think.

[Seahawk]

Just a question, how well does the Virtual Console work? Is the emulation generally high quality, or does it lag needlessly? Are the games totally accurate to the originals, or is there a difference here and there, and are these differences major?

It depends on the game. Literally. Each game has its own emulator, which is developed by whoever is releasing the game. So each emulator is unique and different.

Some info here:
Virtual Console - Differences from Original Games (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_Console#Differences_from_original_games)

Personal experiences:
Overall most games run fine, and unless you played the originals you won't notice any bugs.

Unfortunately I'm pretty anal about noticing differences from the original so here comes a big list of differences.

N64 games look a lot nicer on VC especially on newer televisions, the textures are much sharper and less blurry. Unfortunately this also brings out how low-res and ugly they really are. The increase in resolution also brings out the black edges on polygons that use 2D textures (trees, flat Hyrule Town artwork in Ocarina of Time, text in a lot of other games). The ugly rendering fog on the original console is completely eliminated for all the games I have (thank goodness!).

A lot of NES games (Kirby's Adventure, Super Mario Bros. 3) have an annoying bar on the left side of the screen that is totally blank. On the original console this bar wouldn't be on screen since it would fall into the overscan area of the modified NTSC signal the NES uses.

Games that run on NES/SNES/Genesis/Other consoles may or may not implement the original sprite flicker. If you are running the Wii at 480p then most games are strectched to 640x480. Some games (Metal Slug, maybe all Neo Geo games) run at 320x240 anyways, which most TVs cannot handle over component cable (or at all). Punch-Out has a strange timing issue in which running it at 480p introduces some control lag, so the game becomes incredibly difficult. There is a fix for this, see here (http://www.nintendo.com/consumer/systems/wii/en_na/ts/pictureSound.jsp#neogeo).

On 480i, the games may or may not run at the original resolution (256x224 or something close to that) which may cause problems for some newer TVs.

Some games have content changed, due to licenses (Wave Race 64) or unsupported harware (N64 Controller/Rumber paks) or whatever (Rondo of Blood has different German intro speech). See article posted above.

Some game by game glitches I noticed:
F-Zero - when you hit the wall, the walls to not flash white
Axelay - On stage 2, the door opening sound does not loop
Detana Twinbee - The sound is horrendous. I wish I could get a refund for this =/.
Kirby's Dream Land 3 - Transparency is implemented incorrectly, is done with Genesis style blank lines. Pretty lame >_>;. Final boss music/sounds do not echo.

Can't think of anything else worth mentioning.....

*EDIT*
I should also add, these issues are for NTSC releases only. PAL regions may have other issues with games regarding original PAL releases and conversions.

[CatalystiCam]

That's good, what titles do you own?

I know this wasn't for me but I own like 20 some titles on just about all consoles offered (nes, snes, genesis, TG16, Master System, N64) and they are all perfect. Yes it's an emulator but I'm pretty sure Nintendo made sure that their emulators are perfect.

---------- Post added at 04:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:37 PM ----------

N64 games look a lot nicer on VC especially on newer televisions, the textures are much sharper and less blurry. Unfortunately this also brings out how low-res and ugly they really are. The increase in resolution also brings out the black edges on polygons that use 2D textures (trees, flat Hyrule Town artwork in Ocarina of Time, text in a lot of other games). The ugly rendering fog on the original console is completely eliminated for all the games I have (thank goodness!).

Now that you mention it, I did notice this with mario kart 64. It looked odd in a way and I could really tell when I first bought it.

Some games have content changed, due to licenses (Wave Race 64)

Wait, what exactly are you referring to with this? Wave Race changed content I had notice but just in game ads. Any reason why? I mean it was just Nintendo ads, should not be any problem there.

[Seahawk]

Wave Race changed content I had notice but just in game ads. Any reason why? I mean it was just Nintendo ads, should not be any problem there.

The ads are what I was referring to.
"A similar case has occurred with Wave Race 64, which had all of the Kawasaki ad banners replaced with Wii and Nintendo DS banners, because Nintendo's license with Kawasaki expired."

Source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_Console#Differences_from_original_games)

[Demon-Mask]

It seems like the NSTC to PAL has been one of the more consistent problems people have had with it.

So the rendering fog is sometimes removed? That is interesting. That is a good change.

[CatalystiCam]

The ads are what I was referring to.
"A similar case has occurred with Wave Race 64, which had all of the Kawasaki ad banners replaced with Wii and Nintendo DS banners, because Nintendo's license with Kawasaki expired."

Huh, interesting. I thought that the banners always just advertised for n64 and gameboy in the original wave race. Then again I haven't played the original wave race since the early 2000's. Now that you mention it I seem to remember a Kawasaki logo on the title screen originally as well.

[Seahawk]

So the rendering fog is sometimes removed? That is interesting. That is a good change.

Believe me it goes a LONG way on making these games more enjoyable and nice to look at. Here on some comparison screenshots.
*Warning: Big Screenshots!*

Banjo Kazooie (actual N64)
http://retrouprising.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1868&stc=1&d=1301186334

Starfox 64 (actual N64)
http://retrouprising.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1869&stc=1&d=1301186369

Zelda: Majora's Mask (Virtual Console) (ignore the text)
http://retrouprising.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1870&stc=1&d=1301186379

Kirby 64: The Crystal Shards (Virtual Console)
http://retrouprising.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1871&stc=1&d=1301186387

You can easily see that everything is much much smoother on the VC releases.

Huh, interesting. I thought that the banners always just advertised for n64 and gameboy in the original wave race. Then again I haven't played the original wave race since the early 2000's. Now that you mention it I seem to remember a Kawasaki logo on the title screen originally as well.

You could just put it on an emulator and find out =P.

[CatalystiCam]

Well, I've tried wave race on emulator and it doesn't work for me. Mostly because it's mupen64++ and I was cruising for games my friend and I could play online.

[Demon-Mask]

That is a pretty noticeable improvement.