How far does free speech go?

[Dudebro]

http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/03/02/scotus.westboro.church/t1larg.westboro.protest1.gi.jpg


I think this is a tough issue. These people just got a supreme court ruling saying they are within their rights to spew all this hate at funerals of totally unrelated people. They already protest at random soldiers funerals and they were planning on doing it at the funeral of the nine year old girl(because she was catholic) who died when that congresswoman was shot but a local radio station traded them air time instead. This ruling was brought about because lots of states and political figures were passing laws/bills that prevented disturbing people while burying their dead. These losers have a lawyer in the family and she fought this and won. Now they can scream obscenities and spit venom at grieving families while they mourn their loved ones.

I get that it's free speech and we have to defend it even if we don't like it but what about the rights of the grieving people? Shouldn't they be allowed some privacy and respect? It's not like this church is really spreading it's message this way or trying to have a discussion, they're just trolling for attention and hurting people.

I realize this might turn into a debate and if it does I'll move it. I just wanted to see how people feel about this recent ruling.

[Slime Slayer]

I beleive in free speech, until it becoms a sensless hate crime like the Westboro Baptist Church does. I beleive "anon" has been shutting down their websites lately, hence the anti anon mask.

[RU Joe]

How far does Free Speech go?
Not far enough for those whose voices need to be heard, and way too far for the fanatics who abuse the Right.

[Dudebro]

I'm honestly not sure what their real point is. They seemingly don't want anyone to join their church, it's mostly just extended family. They claim to want people to realize their version of the bible is correct but again, they don't seem to want people to join them. Something is not right. I'm starting to think the head nutjob has some extreme agenda to push free speech to it's limits. Or maybe they're all just ignorant, horrible people with nothing better to do. Either way I think one of these days they'll push the wrong family and people will get hurt or killed. If it doesn't happen I'd be amazed.


@steven - yeah I think I heard the WBC was trying to get sites shut down that are associated with anon but they had no luck. If anyone deserves the attention of anon it's them. No mercy for them since they show none to others. Isn't that in their bible, an eye for an eye? Surely they can appreciate that.

@JG - It's almost like people defend the ultra crazy because it's safe in a way. Defending the indefensible seems noble and enlightened but you can still dismiss them because they're crazy. Defending stuff that conflicts with your world view and makes waves is not as easy to dismiss, you get linked to it. Know what I mean?

[RU Joe]

DB:
I'm honestly not sure what their real point is. They seemingly don't want anyone to join their church, it's mostly just extended family. They claim to want people to realize their version of the bible is correct but again, they don't seem to want people to join them. Something is not right. That is extremely concerning; organizations which demand their members be isolated is almost always a warning sign.
Also, it's one of the ingredients necessary for successful brainwashing.
I'm starting to think the head nutjob has some extreme agenda to push free speech to it's limits.He'd better have some special things in mind because 'radical Islam' is certain to give him a run for his money!
They're calling EVERYONE down, including their supporters, the very people who fight for their right to be so demanding and aggressive.
But I digress ...
Or maybe they're all just ignorant, horrible people with nothing better to do. Either way I think one of these days they'll push the wrong family and people will get hurt or killed. If it doesn't happen I'd be amazed.
I was actually thinking that before I even read it.
You're right, someone is going to pop off at the wrong moment, and BANG!
They'll probably get away with it too, since they are emotionally distraught.

Hey, I don't get it about 'Anon'.
Isn't that just exactly what it seems,
a person wanting to remain anonymous?

[Tails]

Everything has a clause, sadly this is one. I mean I think it was bill o'reilly who insults obama? Isn't he trying to ban him from tv? I've no idea just saying tidbits of what I've read/heard.

[Dudebro]

Maybe their trying to force laws that will suspend free speech? Once you make exceptions for speech that bothers people you can make exceptions for other stuff.

Anon refers to a specific group of people who form an online community. It's no one person or group, it's lots and lots of people all with similar goals and motivations.


@Tails - Obama is trying to ban Orly from TV?
http://207.199.174.56/img/EckzkmShbV_o-reilly.jpg

[RU Joe]

I don't buy it, Alex Jones will be the first to be banned.

They have to ban him, did you see how he took over The View when they were talking about Charlie Sheen?

He talked about how Sheen didn't kill a million people in Iraq, wasn't involved in the takedown of {Solomon Bros.} building 7 in New York, T.S.A. putting their hands down peoples' pants, the Banksters bankrupting the U.S. by stealing 23.7 trillion dollars from the Federal Reserve, torture, secret arrests, America falling into a Police State ....

One comment on Prisonplanet forum said:
'I've never seen those women so quiet!'

{by the way if you don't know who Alex Jones is, you have to check out his sites infowars.com and prisonplanet.com, and while you're there listen to his radio show for free in multiple formats - he almost gets as fired up about this stuff as I do!
Even if you don't believe a word he says {even though he reports stories mostly from major independent publications like Associated Press and Reuters, and also declassified military documents, like Operation Northwoods, for example} it's still worth it for the entertainment value.

http://mundofleko.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/alex_jones__waking_life.gif?w=395&h=517

[Kong]

The first time I heard anything about Westboro I thought they were a bunch of atheist that were trying to make fun of religion.

Seems to me that they just want attention. And our media system gives it to them. It is just one family of nut jobs and they get more air time than Paris Hilton. Just ignore them and they will probably go away. If they were posting here and banning wasn't working then I would just delete their posts. That worked for every other troll. I don't see why it wouldn't work for them. Turn the cameras off.

Incidentally that is the same lesson the US gov learned from the Vietnam protests. Turn the cameras off and the protests never gather strength.

Our free speech laws are strange. The only things that are not protected are obscenity, defamation, incitement to riot, and imminent threats of violence.

So you can not cuss but you can say "god wants fags to die".

Seems to me that that is a threat of violence. An incitement to riot. An obscenity. And defamation.

As much as I dislike what they are saying, I don't think we should ban people from saying it. But the weird part is we let people say that but then ban them from cussing. That just doesn't make sense. How is it free speech if there are 7 words we can not say? And how are those 7 words worse than what the Westboro people are legally saying?


I think a law that you can not protest at funerals sounds reasonable. I think protesting at Hitler's funeral would be wrong. There is a time and place. Targeting grievers is just wrong.

Would anyone be against a law making protests at funerals illegal? Graveyards are private property. Seems like you shouldn't even need a new law to kick them out.

[Tails]

@Tails - Obama is trying to ban Orly from TV?
http://207.199.174.56/img/EckzkmShbV_o-reilly.jpgIt's someone who always bashes Obama. I thought it was him. o.o

[warghoul]

I always wanted to go to one of those protests and free speech the living hell out of a coupple of those guys.

[joshofsilence]

Honestly I don't thin there is ANY logic to what these people are doing. There's no plan, or goal, or real agenda other than being obnoxious.

[joz]

I'd love to see them at a Hell's Angel's funeral.

[elrod21]

Free Speech is a funny thing. I can't believe the lack of class and decency that Church is showing by showing up at these funerals but I have always pondered the statement "abusing a right". How exactly does one "abuse a right". To me a right is a right.

Don't get me wrong, I think they are behaving like total scumbags but to have a right you have to take the good with the bad.

All I know is if I was in one of the family's of the deceased shoes I would make sure to have the funeral on private property with a large fence to prevent me having to deal with the hate-mongering church members. I think anti-protesters against them would be a wonderful thing as well.

[warghoul]

Free Speech is a funny thing. I can't believe the lack of class and decency that Church is showing by showing up at these funerals but I have always pondered the statement "abusing a right". How exactly does one "abuse a right". To me a right is a right.

Don't get me wrong, I think they are behaving like total scumbags but to have a right you have to take the good with the bad.

All I know is if I was in one of the family's of the deceased shoes I would make sure to have the funeral on private property with a large fence to prevent me having to deal with the hate-mongering church members. I think anti-protesters against them would be a wonderful thing as well.
There's a motorcycle group that shows up at these funerals from time to time and park in the way so the families of the deceast don't have to see this bs.

[elrod21]

Well that's good then. Glad to hear someone isn't afraid to get in their way.

[joz]

What Kong said is the most effective method of getting rid of these people. They just want the free publicity and attention from the media. Unplug them and that would be the end of it.

[warghoul]

It's hard to unplug idiots like this they'll just yell louder.

[joz]

Doesn't matter how loud you get, if the media doesn't record you nor air anything you do, nobody will hear about them.

[Kugyince]

When they protest at funerals they usually protest on the sidewalk nearest the service.

I would love to see heaps of violence happen upon these people. That being said, they have the freedom to do what they are doing much like the KKK has the right to their parades.

[Dudebro]

They have to ban him, did you see how he took over The View when they were talking about Charlie Sheen?I didn't know he was on the view. What was the point of having him on the show?

He talked about how Sheen didn't kill a million people in Iraq, wasn't involved in the takedown of {Solomon Bros.} building 7 in New York, T.S.A. putting their hands down peoples' pants, the Banksters bankrupting the U.S. by stealing 23.7 trillion dollars from the Federal Reserve, torture, secret arrests, America falling into a Police State ....
One comment on Prisonplanet forum said:
'I've never seen those women so quiet!'Seems like they might've been surprised at his rant and they were in a stunned silence. I doubt those people were silenced by some perceived truth, they probably just didn't know how to reply to it on air. Kinda like when Kanye said "Bush hates black people" and Mike Myers just stood there for a minute and didn't know what to say, because it was unsuspectedly strange and on air.

Would anyone be against a law making protests at funerals illegal? Graveyards are private property. Seems like you shouldn't even need a new law to kick them out.
I thought part of free speech was that it only extends as far as the next person. Like you can't stand on the street and rant and rave in someones face just because it's your right to express yourself. If you can't shout fire in a theater you shouldn't be able to compound the grief and sadness of people at a funeral. Both are potentially dangerous and causing a public disturbance, nothing to do with free speech.


It's someone who always bashes Obama. I thought it was him. o.oYou're gonna have to do better than that. 99% of the talking heads on Fox news consistently talk trash about Obama 24/7. Huckabee was just recently in the news apologizing because he said Obama was born and raised in Kenya, which is an outright lie and he knew it. This late in the game and he's claiming he wasn't aware of all the controversy surrounding Obamas nationality? It's all just part of the agenda of bashing Obama, dems and liberals.


@About the media not paying attention to them and them going away- good luck with that. The news media LOVES the drama. If it's not that loon Palin it's some other polarizing nutjob that gets people up in arms. I think the only way to really stop them is to counter protest and make it uncomfortable for them. Micheal Moore showed a great example of this-
YouTube - Michael Moore vs Westboro Baptist Church
Relevant part starts around 1:24 but the whole clip is good.


When they protest at funerals they usually protest on the sidewalk nearest the service.But if they could they'd be right up next to the mourners screaming their hate full force. I think the only thing them prevents them is the land being private property. Btw I don't think they've tried to protest at Arlington Cemetery, I doubt our military/government would allow them anywhere near that site. Too bad they don't extend that to civilian sites.

That being said, they have the freedom to do what they are doing much like the KKK has the right to their parades.But the KKK protests in public places where people can choose to avoid them. WBC is infringing on the rights of the mourners by causing intentional distress. It's not like the mourners are gonna leave to avoid them. It's harassment and it's very intentional. If the KKK tried to protest black funerals I bet things would be very different.



Btw in that video I posted Phelps(their leader) admits it all about attention. A gay guy asks if he would come to his funeral and Phelps said "no, you're not famous enough. Maybe if it was the presidents mother or something". Like they'd be allowed anywhere near an important persons funeral.

[Kugyince]

That's not true. Not everyone can avoid the KKK marches such as businesses located on the streets they march down.

Anyways, listen. Anyone with a shred of decency, humanity, and common sense would agree that what they're doing is horrible, hateful, and they're a bunch of pigs for doing so. I would love to slug Phelps right in the face and I would certainly do so if the opportunity ever arose.

That being said, you can not legally take away someone else's free speech just because it makes another person feel bad. It's too much of a slippery slope and we are better served to avoid going down that road.

[RU Joe]

Originally Posted by JG
They have to ban him, did you see how he took over The View when they were talking about Charlie Sheen?
DB:
I didn't know he was on the view. What was the point of having him on the show?YouTube - Alex Jones onThe View 2011 about Charlie Sheen Rage [Fair Use. Non-Profit & Educational only!]
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZxG0siDMqM)
JG:

One comment on Prisonplanet forum said:
'I've never seen those women so quiet!'
DB:
Seems like they might've been surprised at his rant and they were in a stunned silence. I doubt those people were silenced by some perceived truth, they probably just didn't know how to reply to it on air. Kinda like when Kanye said "Bush hates black people" and Mike Myers just stood there for a minute and didn't know what to say, because it was unsuspectedly strange and on air.Yeah, he pretty much went on an Infowars tirade at the end there, which is why I love his style.
We all need to start doing things like that, because right now, 2 + 2 = 5 {and if you disagree, you're with Al Queda} , and the Right to state 2 + 2 = 4 is quickly fading away.

Whether or not you believe in any conspiracies, or what the Independent Newspapers or the declassified Government documents have to say, you must agree that Freedom of Speech is under attack.
I'm saying that the issues they're using as the excuse to steal our Freedom are devices they created/executed themselves.

"The Trilateral Commission is intended to be the vehicle for multinational consolidation of the commercial and banking interests by seizing control of the political Government of the United States.
The Trilateral Commission represents a skillful, coordinated effort to seize control and consolidate the four centers of power political, monetary, intellectual and ecclesiastical.
What the Trilateral Commission intends is to create a Worldwide economic power superior to the political Governments of the Nation states involved.

As managers and creators of the system ,they will rule the future." - U.S. Senator Barry Goldwater in his l964 book: With No Apologies.

[Dudebro]

@Tenser- But is it really too risky to pursue? I think it sounds reasonable to make it illegal to target people at funeral services. What kind of speech is being surpressed at a funeral that can't be expressed two blocks down the street? I think it's a mockery of freedom of speech rights to allow these people to use it for abuse. Would we be ok if they decided to stand across the street from schools and scream hate and evil at kids?
I know we agree on this I'm just asking in general, this whole thing really confuses me.

@JG- Yeah those women were all confused and annoyed with him. I gotta say he makes himself look like a lunatic. I totally disagree with the narrator, Alex Jones did a horrible job and even if he is telling the truth almost nobody will listen because he comes off as a manic nutjob. To be totally honest, no bias I promise. Perception can be a bitch.

[Kong]

I would be in favor of saying you can not protest near funerals and k-12 schools.

But I think the slippery slope is after that law is passed someone else will want to extend it to Churches and Wal-Marts. And someone else will say parks and government buildings.

[warghoul]

@Tenser- But is it really too risky to pursue?.
I think it is...thats why you need a few corupt people like me around I'd be proud to demonstrate the 1 hitter quitter to these insensitive...maybe not the right place for these words but you get the picture.

[Dudebro]

But I think the slippery slope is after that law is passed someone else will want to extend it to Churches and Wal-Marts. And someone else will say parks and government buildings.We make exceptions already for stuff like shouting fire in a theater because it's seen as dangerous and intentionally disturbing the peace. I think as a majority the people of the US can agree that funeral services should be off limits. It hasn't happened yet but it seems to be only a matter of time before people do commit to violence over it. People are mad and trying to pass laws against it and now it was overruled by the high court. I bet people are getting to their breaking points now.

I think it is...thats why you need a few corupt people like me around I'd be proud to demonstrate the 1 hitter quitter to these insensitive fu...maybe not the right place for these words but you get the picture.Did you hear about the guy who tried to do a drive by macing on them? Not only did he kinda miss and they blocked with their hate signs but he sprayed a cop and innocent bystanders if I remember right. Good intentions but man did that guy fail. Think he got charged with assault because of the cop.

[Kugyince]

But I think the slippery slope is after that law is passed someone else will want to extend it to Churches and Wal-Marts. And someone else will say parks and government buildings.

Hospitals, places of work, residences, etc...

We make exceptions already for stuff like shouting fire in a theater because it's seen as dangerous and intentionally disturbing the peace.

Only because it's dangerous in that the speaker is endangering others. It has nothing to do with disturbance.

[Dudebro]

I just noticed this-
Fallen Marine's father says anti-gay pickets will draw gunfire - CNN.com (http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/03/03/us.westboro.father/index.html?hpt=C2)
Seems the guy who brought them to court over protesting his sons funeral will now have to pay over 100k in court costs to the WBC. His son dies in action, they try to bury him and are assaulted for no direct reason* and now the courts tell him he's wrong and he has to pay a bunch of money to the people who did all this to him and his family? That's some cold justice right there. I can't get behind that despite their right to free speech.
Now the father is warning of potential violence because of the ruling.
"Something is going to happen," Albert Snyder told CNN Thursday. "Somebody is going to get hurt."
"You have too many soldiers and Marines coming back with post-traumatic stress syndrome, and they (the Westboro protesters) are going to go to the wrong funeral and the guns are going to go off."
"And when it does," Snyder said. "I just hope it doesn't hit the mother that's burying her child or the little girl that's burying her father or mother. It's inevitable."
I agree with that. It's bound to happen sooner or later. I wonder if people will protest any of the WBCs funerals?




*they protest military funerals because of some supposed government homosexual conspiracy. They're too cowardly to protest actual government people or places, this gets far more attention and less resistance(for some reason).

[Kugyince]

I believe there's a good chance that it will inevitably escalate to that point as well, sad as it is. Snyder also claimed that the violence would be on the court's hands which I don't agree with. The judges were just doing their job which is to interpret the current laws, not rewrite them.

[Dudebro]

I agree the blood wouldn't be on the judges. It's on the WBC since they're pushing people and asking for it.

[Kugyince]

Agreed.

[Kong]

Can you protest in front of someone's house? Can you follow one person around and protest that individual person every time they are in public?

If yes then they should start a 365 day / year gay festival that follows Phelps around. There should be at no time less than 20 gay people making out within 5 feet of him.

[Demon-Mask]

As much as I support the concept of free speech, it is taken way the hell too far way too often.
Protesting the building of a mosque, protesting at military funerals and whatnot. Yeah, protesting is great, but I think of protesting the building of a mosque or protesting at military funerals as what should be considered a hate-crime.

There needs to be limits, every freedom needs some sort of limit, there needs to be law or we all fall into chaos which will limit our rights to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" more than limiting free speech and whatnot a little bit could ever do.

[Kugyince]

Can you protest in front of someone's house? Can you follow one person around and protest that individual person every time they are in public?

If yes then they should start a 365 day / year gay festival that follows Phelps around. There should be at no time less than 20 gay people making out within 5 feet of him.

Yes and Phelps would love that. All he wants is the publicity.

[Dudebro]

Apparently not Tenser, did you watch that Micheal Moore video I posted? Both times they confronted him with the Sodommobile he left because of the gay attention. Maybe that would change if it became commonplace but so far it's the only thing that seems to make them scurry away like roaches when a light is turned on.

[RU Joe]

DB:
did you watch that Micheal Moore video I posted?I know you're talking to Tenser, but I want to say that I just watched the video myself.
Side note: does Moore have a TV show now?

About the video:
I find it very interesting how these hate groups say 'God hates fags'.
According to whom?
Or is this just their Preacher's interpretation of a particular piece of scripture?

I really don't know, because I'm not religious, but let's say for example there is a clearly worded piece of scripture stating that God does indeed 'hate fags'.
Would it not then be up to God to 'do something' about it?

Or is their particular flavor of God not powerful enough?
If so, it makes me wonder what makes him worthy of worship in the first place, I mean, he is supposed to be a GOD after all.
Why would he need puny Humans to 'smite' anyone for him - is he not capable, and so had to assign minions to do 'his work'?

Where exactly does it say this in scripture, and if it does in fact say so in scripture, then doesn't that make the scripture hate speech?

[Dudebro]

Side note: does Moore have a TV show now?Not that I know of. He's received some negative attention since the video came out and I don't think people wanna hear him anymore. He does some good exposing stuff but his methods aren't always agreeable, like lying to a soldier he was interviewing and using editing to twist his words(from what I remember).

I find it very interesting how these hate groups say 'God hates fags'.
According to whom?
Or is this just their Preacher's interpretation of a particular piece of scripture?It's their interpretation of the bible. They believe that homosexuality is going against god and that the US government is trying to promote a homosexual agenda at home and in the military. I guess they don't pay attention to any major sources since the opposite seems to be true.

I really don't know, because I'm not religious, but let's say for example there is a clearly worded piece of scripture stating that God does indeed 'hate fags'.
Would it not then be up to God to 'do something' about it?Supposedly god loves all but there are passages about man not laying with man like he would with a woman. I'm not biblical scholar but I've heard many interpretations and reasons, it's not a clear cut fact to most people.

They think that it's their duty as gods chosen people to spread the message and covert people.

Or is their particular flavor of God not powerful enough?
If so, it makes me wonder what makes him worthy of worship in the first place, I mean, he is supposed to be a GOD after all.
Why would he need puny Humans to 'smite' anyone for him - is he not capable, and so had to assign minions to do 'his work'?It's the same as other religious people who feel it's their duty to spread the word. Christian warriors and muslim extremists, it's all the same really.

Where exactly does it say this in scripture, and if it does in fact say so in scripture, then doesn't that make the scripture hate speech?Religion is seemingly exempt from this kind of thing. It's that automatic respect that religions expect but don't feel they have to give in return. On top of that they don't have to pay taxes either, WBC included. Awesome right?

[RU Joe]

DB:
Religion is seemingly exempt from this kind of thing. It's that automatic respect that religions expect but don't feel they have to give in return. On top of that they don't have to pay taxes either, WBC included.
Exempt? from Universal Laws and Right?
'Some' are 'more equal' than 'others', it seems, whenever someone's God comes into play.
Why exactly does religion deserve respect when it clearly reserves the right to selectively respect whom it chooses {although really we're talking about the Preachers' interpretations of these things.}

WBC? Whaddat? I missed this reference.

... and they don't have to pay taxes? Awesome Right.

[Dudebro]

Exempt? from Universal Laws and Right?
I mean if it's recognized as a religion then it can pretty much say whatever hateful thing it wants and we're supposed to afford it respect because people believe in it.

WBC? Whaddat? I missed this reference.
Westboro Baptist Church, the morons from this article. Last I heard their church of family members enjoys tax exempt status.

[RU Joe]

DB:
I mean if it's recognized as a religion then it can pretty much say whatever hateful thing it wants and we're supposed to afford it respect because people believe in it
Foolishness.
Respect is something earned, not automatically granted.
From what I've seen, religion in general is not deserving of any respect, based on its apparent attitude towards all not within its own ranks.

It's all there to control you.

[Dudebro]

Counterprotesters confront Westboro Baptist Church at Arlington - CNN.com (http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/05/30/arlington.cemetery.protesters/index.html?hpt=T2)

So talk about strange bedfellows. :lol: It seems that a group of local Klan members showed up at a funeral protest to counter the Westboro morons.
They said they were there to object to the Westboro Baptist Church's anti-troop message.
"It's the soldier that fought and died and gave them that right to free speech," said Dennis LaBonte, the self-described "Imperial Wizard" of the KKK group that he said he formed several years ago.

Hard to disagree with him. Also to their credit they reportedly remained calm and unoffensive, handing out american flags and pow/mia stuff. But then this-
LaBonte insisted he is not a racist nor a "hate-monger," but said he believes the white race is "slowly and most assuredly being denigrated."
Members of the group declined to say whether they were armed.

And now we're right back to crazy again.

Weird right? You know you're horrible people when a group that exists for the sole purpose of hate is protesting you.:lol:

[Kugyince]

Why do you use the laughing smiley on your own jokes?

[Dudebro]

Because I want to express that I find it amusing? I don't mean to be pretentious if that's the vibe you're getting.

[Kugyince]

Not implying anything. I just find it weird when people laugh at their own jokes. It seems like they're trying to convince others that what they said was funny.

Anyways, sorry for the derail. Carry on.

[jim5cents]

he took over The View when they were talking about Charlie Sheen?


We are men...we don't watch The View.

My father was in the Air Force, one of his responsiblilities was the organization of the Great New England Airshow, held everyother year at Westover ARB outside of Springfield, MA. Protesters would picket the airshow preaching about how the weapons of war should not be celebrated, eventhough it is those weapons that continue to ensure their right to free speech and liberty. I completely get that and think that is acceptable free speech. I believe it is completely unacceptable to celebrate the death, man or woman, gay or straight, black or white, of anyone that as died in the service of the country that grants you those rights.

In the end, it is pathetic that these protesters that preach about non-issues (homosexuals in the military). Go out and get a job, or at least contribute to society in some manner other than taking up the airwaves.

I am curious about how these protester would feel about someone like this?

Friedrich Wilhelm von Steuben - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

One of the heroes of the American Revolution, basically kicked out of the Prussian army for being accused as a homosexual. Was a pivotal figure in the Continetial Army during the winter of 1777 in Valley Forge. Ultimately left his estate to two much younger Army officers whom he had an "extraordinarily intense emotional relationship"

[Dudebro]

We are men...we don't watch The View.
Us men should also not be quoting people from months ago without even putting a name. I had to go back and browse to figure out where you got that from.

Great New England AirshowPretty sure I went to that as a kid and it was awesome. We saw one of those U2 spy planes as it came straight down out of the sky and it was about as silent as it could be.

About the WBC idiots. Chances are they fabricate most of their nonsense anyways. They are trolling the world. I wouldn't believe a word they say either way. It's all for attention.

[jim5cents]

Us men should also not be quoting people from months ago without even putting a name. I had to go back and browse to figure out where you got that from.


Pffttt....we men have no concern for dates, the only dates that matter are past, present, and future.

---------- Post added at 07:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:39 PM ----------

We saw one of those U2 spy planes as it came straight down out of the sky and it was about as silent as it could be.

Short of actual bombs going off (during some demos, there were fireball pyrotecnetics), they had it all.

[Dudebro]

I don't remember any of the other aircraft we saw(besides antiques from WWI and II on the ground) but that spy plane stood out in my mind because it was so awesome. When I say it came straight down I mean it. We were walking into the place and then suddenly there was this huge black plane banking over us, we never heard it coming. It was incredibly close too, impressive to say the least.
I also remember they had a trick plane race a trick big rig with a jet engine on it's hitch rather than a trailer. Pretty sure the truck won.

Not to derail but this is interesting to me.

[jim5cents]

The Airshow is 2 days, they have tons of aircraft demos, spy planes, fighters, bombers, helicopters, paratrooper teams, exhibition shows like the truck (if I remember, that was 1996 or 1998, stunt pilots, not to mention tons of exhibits on the ground, planes you can inspect up close, plus the precision flight teams like the Thunderbirds and the Blue Angels.

They didn't do the show in 2002 I think because everything was hitting the fan, but it is held on the first weekend in August on the even years. Parking and Admission are free, so if you are in Western Mass during that time, I highly, highly recommend it.

Great New England Air Show (http://greatnewenglandairshow.com/index.shtml)

[Kong]

The argument that soldiers should be the only group immune from protests because they fought/fight for your right to protest is extremely weak.

[RU Joe]

^ Great point about Baron von Steuben, Jim.
It reminds me of the episode of M.A.S.H. where they had a racist patient come through, so Hawkeye and his friends played a trick on him.
As he was unconcious after his surgery they used shoe polish to paint him black, then told him that he had recieved a transfusion from an African/American Soldier.
{and had their African/American Nurse there when he woke up to hand him the mirror so he could see; he really freaked out, and then she told him the truth of what they did to him and what the point was}
Needless to say the experience turned him around.
Perhaps something similar would change this preachers' mind?

Regarding weapons of war:

Greed is far more dangerous and 'evil' than any weapon, and I think those protesters should learn more about who issues orders to our Governments who in turn command the troops instead of barking up the wrong tree.
Police and Soldiers are being used in this game, and most of them don't like it nor do they appreciate being the scapegoats for the problems Corporations and Banksters started in the first place.

Yes, there are real bad guys out there who could potentially do us harm but what we're seeing in a larger sense are 1984 tactics where we're chasing after Emannuel Goldberg? stein? - a created 'Boogeyman' to be used as an excuse for endless conflicts and wars.

But getting back to weapons I think their misuse is the real issue.

[Dudebro]

I agree they shouldn't be the only group to be afforded respect but I do think veterans should be the turning point in this issue. They do volunteer to die in order to protect our rights and culture, even if you disagree with it. If we can't even protect them when they're being honored at a funeral then what did they die for really? We're catering to terrorists basically, and that's just wrong.

[RU Joe]

DB, I don't know if you're aware of this but Veterans are being demonized in the media lately, being labeled 'disgruntled' {and they have every reason to be disgruntled} and furthermore there is an organization I can only call 'Obama's Youth' made up of young boys who are being trained in S.W.A.T. to 'go after' these same 'disgruntled' Veterans.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/images/may2009/150509top3.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_L6pDyjqqsvY/SdBOulPgA-I/AAAAAAAAa2Q/tOg-JT_qmUo/s400/obama+youth.png

These kids aren't going to question an order to go in and kill someone - likely someone who's speaking out against the war crimes committed by our Armed Forces or otherwise blowing the whistle about things the establishment wants kept quiet.
They're being filled with the worst kind of propaganda and don't yet have the mental capability to realize what's being done to them.

YouTube - ‪OBAMA AND A CIVILIAN ARMY‬‏

What are the Veterans dying for?
Let's check the historical examples:

WW1 - the Banksters and their Corporate partners got their League of Nations
WW2 - they got their United Nations
WW3 - World domination?

[jim5cents]

The argument that soldiers should be the only group immune from protests because they fought/fight for your right to protest is extremely weak.

First, that arguement has not been made. Second, if that arguement is made, then in the case of the individual citizen soldier, yeah, they should be immune from protests. They are not the policy makers. A bunch of privates and sergents didn't get together and decide to invade Iraq or decided the policy on homosexuals in the military. The protesters take the cowards way out though, protesting the individual solider simply because they are annoynomous, they don't have to point fingers at a specific person and then get singled about by that person rebuttal. Third, if the arguement was made, then servicewomen, not just soliders should get a pass. Other groups that should be given a pass on protests, abortion clinics...go protest and kill the judges on the Supreme Court if you don't like that decision, not the Joes making a buck, Teachers...If a school board hires a teacher that sucks and can't teach your kids, blame them, that is there negligence...then teach your kid yourself. Migrate Workers...if you don't want them working in the fields, then pick up a shovel and do it yourself.


Concerning JG's entire post.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/give.asp

Seriously...I looked out the window this morning...didn't see any veterens getting rounded up for reeducation...didn't see the secret police walking around. You really have to get used to fact that words coming out of Alex Jones' mouth are sensationalized garbage, made up half truths and exaggerations.

[RU Joe]

Jim, I looked out my window last year at the exact same time the whole G20/Torontonomo terror was unfolding and I didn't see or hear anything, yet hundreds of people including Police on duty at the time insist that it happened.

http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CV2zQQ0LpM

But since I personally did not see any of this with my own eyes it cannot be true, right?

Here's another example, from today's news:

http://http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/story/2011/06/02/bc-wildfire-tisigar-lake.html?ref=rss

I can't see any smoke when I look towards the Yukon Territories, nor any glow of the fire by night.
I did not personally see the fire, therefore the story cannot be true.

Do you see what I'm getting at?
You cannot reasonably expect to see things announced in news stories happening in real time just outside your window, even if you do live in a city like I do.

[jim5cents]

Seriously...I looked out the window this morning...didn't see any veterens getting rounded up for reeducation...didn't see the secret police walking around.

I did not personally see the fire, therefore the story cannot be true.



Really!?!?!?!?! No kidding. It was an obvious exaggration, but that is too much of a stretch for you. However, it is fine for you to exaggerate Americans as members of the Hitler Youth.

So many of your arguements and "facts" are so utterly groundless that literally 3 seconds on a search engine can debunk them. Any "truth" you get from AJ is the same as any "truth" you are going to get from cleirgyman, and that is total "bs".

[RU Joe]

Jim, I'm concerned about the ideology behind the formation of armed youth brigades no matter what country they're from.
Please look at the historical parallels between the Bernaysian propaganda used in Germany and you'll see that same pattern unfolding in the U.S.

As I've said so many times, this is not the will of common Americans {average Jills and Joes} who I know for a fact are some of the nicest people you'll ever meet.
This propaganda is the product of a well oiled machine being directed by the same social engineers who are trying to get people on board with things like the Global Carbon Taxation Scam, and for that matter those same nice, common Americans are victims of this along with the rest of us.
You guys just get that extra bonus of being scapegoated for it through application of the false notion of National Identity; I was born on this hunk of dirt they named Canada, you may have been born somewhere else but SO WHAT??

This Police State with the Secret Citizen Spy Groups, camera trees, check and search {and grope!} points .. all of it could very well have been set up here in Canada but for the Trans Texas Corridor A.K.A. the N.A.F.T.A. Superhighway which is so key to the North American Union.
But like P.N.A.C. states in plain English this is part of their plan and unfortunately that includes things like disarming America and setting up groups like the youth squad ... and I really do hope that you're right and they aren't going to send these specially trained kids after people.

I hope it's just a new youth indocrination into the Military, like a new kind of Cadets, because that would make me feel a lot easier about it.

[Dudebro]

Foo Fighters - Keepin it Clean in KC - YouTube

Foo Fighters counter protesting the WBC in their own way. Seems the trolls showed up to protest their concert because of some vague nonsense about the entertainment industry promoting everything wrong with the world. They also said anyone with a platform should use it promote their god. They must lead such boring and miserable lives.


Btw the outfits they're wearing come from a shoot they were doing recently. The video is not safe for work and it might not be safe for home if someone walks into the room suddenly

NSFW but funny as hell
Foo Fighters - Hot Buns UNCENSORED ! - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1sTM_yEPFU&feature=relmfu&oref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D6e 5hRLbCaCs%26feature%3Dtopvideos_music)
Since it's so nsfw you'll have to watch it on youtube, do it!

[Dudebro]

The stupidity never ends with these people. Now they're gonna try to protest Steven Jobs funeral because-
Westboro will picket his funeral.He had a huge platform; gave God no glory & taught sin.
Which the lawyer/daughter/obviously brain damaged member of the church tweeted from her iPhone. Instead of realizing how ironic and stupid it looks they go on to claim that god provided this tool for them to use. So they either think Jobs was god or that no one ever creates anything ever, it's always god. Maybe since they're going after a geek god someone will snap and take care of them.*

*Dudebro and Retrouprising.com are not responsible for any harm that may come to the WBC. All comments are property of their respective owners.

[samejamesbond]

Those guys are ridiculous, it's a shame they get away with their actions.

[fenrir1887]

Those morons need to learn. They'll only get away with it for so long before somebody slips a very slanderous word about somebody who is still alive. Slander isn't constitutionally protected.